Alevels for medicine

[worriedcms]

Dd is still a long way off, only starting y10 now but has been determined to do medicine for many years already.

She knows chemistry is mandatory and biology makes most sense, while maths is her strongest subject so seems these will be her chosen alevels.

However, she is also a brilliant linguist and could potentially throw Spanish into the mix.

Do all applicants, or the vast majority, have chemistry, biology and maths?

I would also suggest when choosing a med. school to look at the are they use for the later years for placements, where my exh taught there was a mass scrambling to pass driving tests and buy cars as the regional hospitals included fairly rural areas, clinics across 3 counties. So basically 3 a levels but aim to get them through their driving test, no need for a car until year 3 though usually.

Area! They use for placements not are!

@worriedcms she's in year 10 !!! Do not tutor for UCAT. Waste of time and money. She won't sit it until summer if year 12 and it's more about practice - 4-6 weeks. Too much and you over think and scores go down.

Do not worry about UCAT yet. Might not even exist in 2 years. Things change every year - BMAT gone now.

You don't choose a Uni, they choose you. But you can maximise chances by playing to your strengths - and if lucky then can select ones that help with placements (most do, providing accommodation or travel costs).

Pros and cons:

Maths. DD said that many of her peers found a first year maths course tough. Those that had A level/aptitude coached the others in her tutor group through. A level maths is a requirement for some intercalations. If your DC has a burning desire to study epidemiology or similar the maths.

Language. Is really a skill rather than a subject, a lovely thing to have, and opens up life long opportunities.

Both. Take four if your DD has the right temperament, and if she has a bit of headroom academically (if the worst that will happen is that she might drop from an A* to an A, then it won't matter, and will give her flex if she changes her mind about medicine.) Probably not for perfectionists or those who are not organised. Taking more than three is also good prep for the work load during the first year of med school.

Or. Take a gap year and do something like volunteering in Latin America.

£3,465 for a second degree with other funding from student loans will build up a debt but it isn't outrageous.

rmbf.org/get-help/advice-hub/medicine-as-a-second-degree-in-england/

However you also need to add in the delay before you start earning, and the loss of four years pension contributions.

A couple of years back there were some calculations that suggested that, if you were able to raise the money, the four and a half year course at Buckingham, the private university, might prove a better investment. We probably need an actuary to calculate the NPV of four years lag in a life time career path, but it will be a lot more than the interest on extra loans.

For us the surprise has been the length of time it takes before a junior doctor is able to settle down. You can be sent anywhere for F1/F2, both to a deanery or within a deanery. Then you have the bottleneck for training places so first you might have to move for a locum/CTF job which allows you time to study, and then move again for your specialist training. Your peers, if they live in cheaper parts of the country or are earning good salaries, will be starting to buy homes when they are in their mid late 20 and be putting down roots, whilst junior doctors will still be looking for flat shares. The extra four years has an impact when you are hitting your 30s.

@sashh how do they live on that ? Unless you can self fund, or have wealthy parents, doing graduate medicine is not possible. Preserve of the richer students.

New A levels post 2018 are much harder. Doing 4 is a bit pointless (unless one is FM) and statistically shows you'll get worse grades. You need AAA (few want A star and few a B), so get AAA.

New maths A level is hard, new Chemistry A level is harder than the old one. Some really stinky questions these days.

@worriedcms for now your DD needs to focus on her GCSEs and getting some volunteering or if possible work experience with a doctor.
She needs to know the reality of medicine, not the fluffy stuff you see on tv. As needsmore says, it's quite a brutal way of living these days. We both have F2 daughters so see this in real life. However I think they are both really enjoying it, despite the v long hours (78 hours a week not unusual) and not very good pay.

Hi Mumsneedwine and others,

Can I please dearail a little? Was reading this post with interest, but noticed your table had a dentists tab- would you mind sharing that if you have it? Daughter keen to go into dentistry and Year 10 this year also.

Also- any info you can share about Ucat? When and how does one take those exams?

@tryingsomethingnew hi, just off out but I'll share the dentist tab when home. You sit UCAT the summer after year 12 at a Pearson centre near you (where they do their driving theory). They book fast so need to register in the June.

Most will do chemistry, biology and maths or physics, or possibly some other science subject. Spanish would have to be a 4th option but it might mean she spreads herself too thinly and would be better doing 3 A levels because she will need top marks to get in to medicine

I know this is an area where we disagree. With both maths and chemistry so much depends on aptitude. Maths without aptitude is a real slog. And frustrating to see gifted mathematicians within the group breeze through it.

It also depends on how strong the maths teaching is within the school, and perhaps at the pace the group as a whole is able to move. Weaker maths teaching can mean that those needing top grades are having to do a lot of filling in gaps on their own.

@dbeuowlxb173939 no, you do not need to do 4. You need 3. Spanish is a great 3rd. This year I have students going with drama, PE, English, History and French as their third. I have 2 going with no chemistry (late decision as medics) and 1 with no biology.

@Needmoresleep I teach A level chemistry and Maths and they now contain concepts that used to be degree level. Especially maths, where you no longer get to choose the specific area in year 13. I teach pure because mechanics is not me !
Talented (& keen) mathematicians can take FM, which should challenge them. I doubt any teachers who teach A level as a specialist are weaker - whether schools all have a specialist is another thing. Our local private school don't now have an A level chemistry teacher (I know, because they tried to poach me). Getting rid of TPS was not a great idea.

V v few students do 4 now, even at highly selective expensive schools. It's not worth the risk. Get 3 A stars if you can. It's worth more than 4 As.

@tryingsomethingnew hope this is clear enough

Mumsneedwine, but as you yourself have said, the school you teach in is extraordinarily deprived.

Rightly or wrongly it is very different for kids who live in over crowded and impoverished circumstances than for, say, kids with their own bedroom and computer and who don't have to work to help the family income.

Four STEM A levels is still the norm for academic London private schools. The odd pupil still takes five. As well as good teaching and a supportive environment gifted mathematicians, the ones who find chemistry and maths concepts straightforward and who have good study skills, can be stretched in a way that those for whom 3 As is a real challenge should not.

But we can agree to differ.

Is medical school still very competitive? Many of the UK graduates from pre-2019 have seemed to have left the field.

If your DD is very smart (does not need to revise for gcse's and can still get A*s) then doing maths, bio and chem and Spanish is a good mix. She could drop Spanish or maths later depending on where she gets placed. For example in UoM you previously didn't need biology so she could drop that if she got a place there ect ect. Otherwise stick to 3 A-levels, Biom chem and Spanish. Better chance of getting all A's.

Those private schools push their pupils to do 4/5 A-levels because it makes their statistics look better. Universities do not care.

It is still v competitive. About 10 applicants per place. Even with the mess of the NHS people still want to be a doctor.

Most schools I work with, including 2 v v expensive schools, only have a handful that take 4 now. The A level changes didn't really hit until last year because of Covid - maths was only sat once before. Although we had a student who did 5 this year - utter genius off to MIT (it's free if you're poor !).

I agree that Universities do not care. I doubt that school do much either. University destination is a more critical measure and in STEM having a fourth A level is quite common for the most competitive courses.

However in DDs case having the extra A level (actually two as she took Physics and Electronics on top of Biology, Maths and Chemistry) helped her get on a competitive engineering intercalation, and helped when she started the course. Grades are obviously important but broader learning is also valuable. Personality also matters. She is not perfectionist but has a very good memory so could remember what is taught in class. The issue now is the congestion of the exam time table.

Mine did IB and both UCAT and BMAT, which was a huge workload 🙄 I would definitely say make life easy and only do 3 A levels for medicine.

I agree there is a big gap between GCSE maths and A level, and it’s tough if you don’t have natural aptitude for the subject. That said, I believe it is harder to get MFL top grades because so many students taking the A level are native speakers/bilingual.

It’s important to pick subjects that maximise her chances of getting the right grades but I would say that biology, chemistry and maths will all make med school much easier, especially if she is interested in the academic/research side of medicine and wants to intercalate (take an extra year to do a specialist BSc). It can be hard getting back into maths when it comes to studying stats if you dropped it at GCSE. Maths is also helpful for biology/chemistry A level, although her school may run extra maths classes for science students not taking it as an A level. It also keeps more options open than Spanish if she decides on a different degree.

Dd had bio chemistry and geography
She could do bio chemistry Spanish and a medical related epq and good volunteering eg at a care home for interview purposes

Oh god! All As! It's a lot of pressure isn't it

Numbers of places do not make sense
Eg Manchester has nearly 400
Bsms 180

www.bmh.manchester.ac.uk/study/medicine/apply/faqs/#:~:text=How%20many%20places%20do%20you,and%2028%20for%20international%20students.