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Economics predocs

16 replies

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 29/07/2024 14:03

My DS had a middle 2.1 for UG and scraped a merit in his master's. He now works as a professional economist. The work he does is obviously not the same as the work done in academia but his job is still quantitative and involves a lot of data analysis.

What are the chances he can return to academia after around of 2 years of work experience? He's hoping that the data analysis and research side of his job might make up for the fact he didn't get a 1st/distinction.

DS's job is in an industry and field of economics that's her super passionate about. But as mentioned before this is the more corporate/work side of the field. He would like to maybe one day delve back into academic economics research.

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titchy · 29/07/2024 17:03

If he's prepared to pay his own fees then not a problem. However if he is looking for funding then he's not that strong an applicant I don't think. Compared to STEM ESRC doesn't have anywhere near as many funding possibilities. If he's niche he might strike it lucky though.

poetryandwine · 30/07/2024 08:51

Hi, OP -

I am in STEM sobI am not completely up on the situation in Economics. I do know that much of the research, but certainly not all of it, is heavily mathematical, so I wonder if your DS has identified specialisms he would enjoy pursuing?

If he requires a funded place as many in the real world do, and if the UK is an overly competitive environment, what about considering America? The top tier may be out of reach, but the country is huge with many universities, and the funding model is different.

In many disciplines post graduates are offered tuition fees plus a decent stipend in return for very reasonable teaching duties. The PhD granting universities are divided into Group I, Group Ii, etc. As with the Russell Group here, there is some randomness.

Some Group II universities offer some excellent programmes; some may be less exciting but are still very solid. Mind you, I am not saying all Group I Economics programmes would be out of reach but if they are this might be still be a worthwhile option.

DS would need to prepare as American PG applicants must sit certain national exams (no disadvantage to the foreign but he would need to brush up). Best wishes to him

Penguinsa · 30/07/2024 10:19

I am not an expert on this (and an academic would know much more than me) but was a professional economist and the vast majority of economists are either academics (who can do some professional economics work as an addition but are primarily academics) or professional economists who stay in that field or if in say banking can either stay or move on to wider roles. The ones I knew who went from professional economist to academia and back again had phDs and I suspect it involved a pay cut as they did it when made redundant from banking.

There are roles in economic consultancies working alongside academics, tends to be lower paid compared to roles in say banking or civil service but can make contacts and get good experience. I did once have an interview with the Bank of England where they offered to potentially fund a PhD which would have been great but declined having a 1 and 2 year old at the time. There isn't much funding within the UK and its very competitive for economics, if you happen to be in the right niche and impress the relevant person very occasionally you might just get lucky but low odds. There are a lot of different roles for professional economists and it might be worth exploring that more if a phD is not viable - I have found banking and political experience with senior politicians and press/media work the most highly valued for getting other roles. The civil service jobs are often underrated but some people can progress to very senior levels and pay through it though they vary.

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 30/07/2024 10:22

He's looking to do a predoc for a year or two to research climate change economics from an academic person. (He works in a related field). Not to go straight into a PhD

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titchy · 30/07/2024 10:38

Oh Ok so we don't (to my knowledge) really use the term 'pre-doc' here, though we do have post-docs). I assume then that he's looking for an MPhil or MRes? There wouldn't be funding for these, though the Masters loan should be available for MRes. Assuming he can sort the financial side of things then a merit at MSc should be fine as the entry requirement.

Penguinsa · 30/07/2024 10:41

That's not my area but it is an up and coming area of economics and I did work briefly with a man who works for the World Bank as a consultant on environmental economics research projects as a professional economist with a Masters.

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 30/07/2024 11:18

Predoc = being a paid Research Assistant at a university. A few of DSs friends who were the top of his economics class and were getting high firsts have done this. They do the predoc to get research experience and then apply for the PhD after.

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titchy · 30/07/2024 12:15

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 30/07/2024 11:18

Predoc = being a paid Research Assistant at a university. A few of DSs friends who were the top of his economics class and were getting high firsts have done this. They do the predoc to get research experience and then apply for the PhD after.

Right. Why didn't you just say that then Confused He just needs to start looking for jobs then and apply. Though if he wants to be an RA in such a niche role I can't see there being many (any?) vacancies so he might need to broaden his horizons.

titchy · 30/07/2024 12:17

I'd probably also suggest being an RA in order to start a PhD isn't really necessary once you have an MSc. If you've only got a BSc then yes very useful.

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 30/07/2024 13:35

titchy · 30/07/2024 12:17

I'd probably also suggest being an RA in order to start a PhD isn't really necessary once you have an MSc. If you've only got a BSc then yes very useful.

His MSc grade isn't the best. He scraped the merit.

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titchy · 30/07/2024 13:41

A merit's a merit. His dissertation mark will be more important - what was it?

You're focussing on the wrong thing though - the grades won't be an issue given he has an MSc and decent applied experience. Getting an RA post in such niche area will be. Getting funding for a PhD will be.

Phphion · 30/07/2024 20:39

Pre-docs and the idea that you have to have pre-doc experience to apply for a good PhD is more of a US thing. It's something that is creeping in in the UK, but stand alone Pre-doc / Research Assistant jobs, as opposed to Research Assistants who are concurrently registered as Master's or PhD students, are still much more rare in UK economics.

In Economics, those that do exist tend to fall into two groups. Firstly, there are ones that are fairly explicitly conceived as additional preparation for PhD study in the UK or internationally (these are the ones that tend to be styled as Pre-docs) and which, as a result, tend to be very competitive and look for people who can demonstrate that they will be excellent PhD students in the future and compete for places on the most competitive PhD programmes (hence why the people he knows who are doing them were very impressive as students). Views in UK academia tend to be rather mixed on the desirability of having a system that includes Pre-docs and on the true benefits of these Pre-docs versus just going straight onto a PhD (whether a standalone PhD or a 1 / 2 + 2.5 / 3 / 3.5, etc. one).

Secondly, there are just Research Assistant jobs that aren't explicitly expected to lead to anything at all, they are just jobs, and often quite poorly paid ones. Someone might do these jobs because they want to get more research experience to help them apply for a PhD, but they aren't designed with this purpose in mind and as a result they can often involve really quite mundane work with little autonomy, which isn't ideal preparation for a PhD. Not all Research Assistant jobs are like this, for example, ones in Research Institutes tend to be better, but you have to look carefully at what the job will involve, what you will learn and what useful skills and experience you would gain from it that would be desirable for a PhD.

In terms of applying for actual Pre-docs, your DS's grades in his undergraduate and Master's degrees might be a bit of a problem in the same way they would if he applied for a PhD. Although I notice a tendency for some universities to advertise any old basic research job as a 'Pre-doc', the proper Pre-docs that are properly structured as useful bridging experiences into a PhD tend to be very competitive. The Economics Pre-doc industry in the UK has to a large extent been able to emerge because of the extraordinary competitiveness of entry (with funding) into the top 5 or so Economics PhD programmes in the UK and the top programmes internationally. As a result, people trying for these Pre-docs tend to be extremely well-qualified already - the kind of people who could fairly easily be accepted onto a funded PhD or Masters + PhD at a different university but who will settle only for the very top ones and are looking for anything they think will help them beat the very low odds. He will need to think very carefully about how he presents his industry experience in a way that demonstrates the value it would bring to a Pre-doc and to a PhD, as this is his only selling-point. If he was able to do a proper Pre-doc of the type that are considered quite prestigious, this would probably help him get onto a PhD and get funding at a lot of universities, provided he meets the other minimum entry requirements (which he won't always with the grades he has). Whether and how much it would make up for OK but not brilliant prior qualifications will vary by university/course, but of course having prestigious and competitive things on an application is a good thing.

For more general Research Assistant jobs (and the pretend Pre-doc ones), having industry experience in the same area would be seen as a positive for getting the job. The benefits of having had a Research Assistant job when applying for a PhD will depend on what the job involves and how your DS can show that it has prepared him for a PhD. In Economics, doing a PhD is generally a very individual experience in which you are expected to design and conduct your research with just some minimal input from your supervisors and you need to understand not just the mechanics of doing research, but also more advanced techniques and the theory behind what you are doing (which is why it is becoming more common for Economics PhDs to require an Economics MRes before starting the actual PhD and why funding for Economics PhDs is a bit different to other subjects), so just getting a job that involves doing basic research tasks wholly under the direction of someone else has some value, but not so much that it would offset questions about an applicant's academic suitability for PhD study. So it's important to look carefully at what the Research Assistant role involves and to avoid getting stuck in a job just because it's in a university when it won't offer the right opportunities.

Realistically, your DS having neither a first nor a distinction at Master's level is likely to rule him out of a lot of open competition Economics PhDs at good universities, either explicitly due to the stated entry requirements (if these are explicitly stated there tends to not be much leeway) or simply because there are plenty of people applying who do have firsts and distinctions, and only very extensive research experience, like years and years in a proper research career, would compensate. This is particularly so if he needs funding - in most cases it is far, far easier to get offered a place than it is to get funding, although it is not generally recommended to do a PhD without funding anyway. This wouldn't be the case everywhere, though. He would need to investigate different courses and make enquiries - there is not much point in him leaving what sounds like a good job now to pursue some distant future dream that might ultimately prove to be unobtainable, so it is a good idea to enquire now to get advice on the steps he could take. Keep in mind that some places will be deliberately vague in their advice.

His best chance now or in the future for a funded PhD would probably be PhDs that are looking for very specific knowledge or experience, so things like PhDs tied to specific research projects or ESRC Case / Strategic linked Studentships which have an external partner alongside the university. Because these types of PhD are developed for a specific purpose by the supervisors / partners prior to the student starting, they are only suitable for people with knowledge and experience in the very specific area the PhD has been designed to address and as a result usually attract fewer suitable applicants per role. Such PhDs also usually put greater emphasis on pre-existing research or work experience in the desired area and demonstrable research skills as the student needs to be able to basically hit the ground running in terms of engagement with the wider research team or external partners.

He could also think creatively about academic disciplines / departments in searching for opportunities. Economics is very competitive, but there are people doing what is essentially economics in other disciplines like business, social policy, interdisciplinary research and so on where competition can sometimes be less fierce for Research Assistant jobs and for PhD funding and entry requirements less strict, so there may be more credit given for post-degree research or work experience as well as for just having a 2:1 and a Master's. Finally, if he just wants to do economics research because he is very interested in a particular research area, rather than to have an academic career, there are opportunities in research organisations, consultancies, think tanks, the civil service, charities, etc., and while having a PhD can be helpful in getting and progressing in these jobs, it isn't always a requirement, particularly for economists with in-demand quants skills. People do also go on to do PhDs after working for a while in these jobs.

LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 30/07/2024 21:35

@Phphion thank you this was the advice DS was looking for

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LeiaOrganaSoloSkywalker · 31/07/2024 13:22

@titchy it wasn't the best. It was a high pass (so high 50s) As I said the merit was a scrape.

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Needmoresleep · 02/08/2024 14:04

Phphion, as always, give great advice.

DS also has ambitions to become an academic and indeed has just completed a PhD in economics.

He took one of a small number of very quantitative Economics masters which are recognised as good PhD preparation. The Masters (EME at the LSE) was intense - and expensive and so there was very little time for PhD applications. DS applied for a small number of funded PhDs and to be a research assistant to a couple of Professors at highly ranked Universities in the US. He was lucky enough (in retrospect given how competitive the process is, he realised he was very lucky indeed) to get a couple of funded PhD offers and an interesting RA offer at an Ivy. Though the latter was attractive he felt that he could not risk turning down a funded PhD place.

His fall back would have been to take a more informal RA job in London, something he has already done in vacations, and apply more widely. The pay would be supplemented by some teaching assistant work, and maybe some private tutoring, so to keep him going with enough time to really focus on the next step.

One of DS' friends, post Masters, got a good and well paid job with an economics consultancy, but after two years decided he wanted to take a PhD, so effectively took a gap year working as a RA and applying. References are important so it is useful to be working for someone who is well recognised.

Economics is unusual in that there is lots of commercial and public sector organisations also carry out research and it is not unusual for people to move between one and another. The obvious approach would be to try and find work in his favoured field and then make a parallel step into academic in the same field. However your DS should not underestimate how competitive it is. DS was on the post-PhD job market last year and made over 250 applications world wide. He found a job eventually, but in general academia appears to be cutting back sharply on recruitment.

YellowAsteroid · 02/08/2024 14:58

In my field, arts and Hums, but PhD students can apply to both AHRC and ESRC Doctoral Partnership Programmes- a 2.i plus Merit at Masters wouldn’t get you funding. And I doubt this would improve with a couple of years of working as an RA.

We would look particularly at the mark for the dissertation as that might give us some sense of research potential but a merit isn’t particularly competitive nowadays.

He could look for PhD posts on projects - so he’d be doing a fairly pre-specified topic in a research team or project. It wouldn’t be a topic entirely of his own choosing.

What is his ultimate career aim? Is a PhD really necessary? It’s a shed load of hard work in a way that is very unlike course work or dissertation writing even at Masters level.

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