Landlord wants to do "open house" viewings

[nutherissue]

DC is moving out of his student rental next month. The contract says the landlord must give them 24 hours notice for viewings. He has told them he wants to do an "open house" tomorrow afternoon. I've found a link here which suggests open house is not legally allowed while they still live there: https://goodmove.co.uk/blog/what-are-my-tenants-rights-if-my-landlord-wants-to-sell/#:~:text=Restrictions%20Around%20Open%20House%20Viewings,at%20reasonable%20times%20are%20allowed. But I can't find a more official reference for it, e.g. on gov.uk or citizens advice. I can only find out-of-date Covid-era references. Can anyone signpost me to something that they can use to help them say "no" to anything other than timed appointments?

@nutherissue I would rather get viewings over and done with! What’s the advantage in one here and one there? If it’s popular it will go and then no more viewings. How did dc view the property? I think it’s very reasonable to do an open day and not have people coming in all the time. Far more efficient to do an open day - your DC possibly got it this way? Lock anything away that matters and go
out!

I have to make an exception and actually agree with @TizerorFizz

My son has secured his London accommodation recently and most of the viewing him and his friends did were open house during a 2-4 hour period and current students were still living at the property. Think this is very common for student lets.

Yup, I also agree with @TizerorFizz .

Much better to have several viewings at the one time and hope it goes that day, rather than having to keep having separate appointments.

Yes, most contracts allow viewings and are unlikely to specify the number of people. Student lets in practice are very different from other lettings anyway as students are usually there for one year, sometimes two and often find the place before Christmas of the year before. Also the whole letting market in general has changed - dire shortage of people, more people in the UK and more coming than ever in our history - it is a completely different world with people try to out bid each other to get places, not least because the state chose to make letting property uneconomic for many landlords (due to tax/interest changes) so vast numbers have stopped letting (which indeed was the hope of the state that wanted those places sold to first time buyers etc)

My son secured a second year flat yesterday… having seen the place on a video. Fingers crossed! It was through an agent.

I agree about getting viewings over with in one go is a good thing. I would also add that commission hungry negotiators are often not great at giving notice etc. The DS should be hoping they find someone quickly, and ideally help with the process by helping make the flat look attractive, or if he is in, pointing out the good things about the property. Building some good will with the agent/landlord might prove useful during the end of tenancy stage. Being arsy may just mean that the agent will be less prepared to show flex when the DC may benefit from some.

As a landlord I have noticed a massive sea change in attitudes over the past few years. Perhaps reflecting a similar change noted by academics. Things are more transactional, and based on rights and entitlement. And as a result a lot more stressful.

I am currently trying to sort out a huge amount of damage caused by a previous tenancy. 4 weeks and a lot of money, plus calling in favours from every tradesperson I know. The boys did not see a problem. They paid their rent on time. They seemed aghast that they might lose deposit as a result of not cleaning for 4 years (the check out says toilets will need chemical cleaning) and breaking just about everything there was to break, sub letting and over occupying. Why did their mums not house train them. My bigger problem is the new group, who are scary. We are still finding problems (the latest is that a shower head is not working and that the screed below the vinyl floor has been shattered - were they lifting and dropping weights) and no doubt a few snagging items will come up after the new group move in, to be resolved as quickly as I can. This is apparently unacceptable. Everything needs to be perfect. The new tenants have a contract, they are paying. The agent, who knows damn well what I am up against, and indeed showed the property complete with beer cans carpeting the floor etc, is now trying to pacify them and is taken it upon himself to go to inspect progress. I assume that even though this group were the first to view and chose to offer full asking, will want a reduction to cover any defect they find in what is an elderly house in a good area that was priced competitively. .

Tenancies need to be partnerships. Most contracts do. Things happen, you do your best. But not nowadays. Any problem and I will get no allowance for the sheer impossibility of delivering reliable workmen to Central London instantly. Oh and they don't like email and work during the day so their preferred means of communication will be to phone me in the evenings.

Life has to be give and take. Build good will. It is not just about entitlement. A bit of give and take goes a long way. Or even awareness of others and the challenges they face.

A rant. I need it. Its not everyone, but when did it happen that people became so focussed on their own rights, unwilling to empathise or see the benefit of building relationships.

@Needmoresleep When the rental prices went sky high and no one will wait for anything. You could delay moving in until 1 Sept or later. Take a fallow period and take the financial hit whilst you sort it out.

I know what I am doing and am considered good at it. (But appreciate that you are the expert.)

The issue is attitudes. They are changing, with rental properties, with university courses, all over the place. I am sure that others can describe first jobbers who expect the world at their feet and the confidence to demand it.

As you say, young people feel that as they are paying a lot and no one will wait for anything. And more to the point, they very much feel that they are entitled to have everything perfect.

I did have a months void and have had trades in every day, including weekends. Most tenants are fine but some seem to have got through their teenage years having had everything done for them, and a sense of entitlement that can be seen from space. I priced the property competitively. I feel for young people and this lot are paying £800 each for a nice house in a central and popular area, which is why it let on the first day. It will be newly painted and carpeted and painted and professionally cleaned. Yet they went round the house as if it had a nasty smell and that I was some aging boomer landlord who clearly knew nothing. The agent has apparently had several conversations with them, and I think just wants a quiet life. I have offered that I will let them off the contract, but surprise surprise, they don't want that, they want the perfect house at a price that suits them.

Which is my point that yes contracts underlie many aspects of life, but most should just be there to clarify if there is a dispute. Life skills are about working with people, showing flexibility and developing relationships.

The DS in the first post might want something from the letting agency at some point. Returning his deposit quickly. A good reference. A former tenant has just asked me to send evidence that she was paying regularly, so I sent her five years of letting agent statements by return. Yes he may be entitled to prevent a block viewing, but if it does not cause him a problem, he may gain more longer term if he is helpful. And everyone gains from having pleasant, rather than demanding, relationships.

There is no agent in this case, just the landlord. He is the sort of landlord who cuts corners - no inventory, no electrical safety certificate, and a HMO license that expired three months ago, with no sign of renewal. So not the most trustworthy landlord.

I started the thread because I had googled "tenants rights open house", was presented with a link which implied that they were unlawful, but I couldn't find a more formal reference for it. It seems that the website is wrong.

In the meantime, my son & friends have messaged the landlord to get his assurance that viewings will be accompanied. They are naturally concerned that "open house" may mean people wandering around their home on their own, because it's a phrase that means different things to different landlords.

I started a similar thread in "Chat" at the same time. It's interesting how different the answers were there - I suspect mostly from other tenants rather than landlords. 🙃

@Needmoresleep Do you not take any comment I make at face value? I did think twice (well three times!) about responding to you but I wish I hadn’t, as usual, It’s aleast attack attack attack. You vented and I tried to be practical. You can, of course, throw it back in my face, as you have, and I know I’m not an expert, so thank you for reminding me. I have let out several properties though and I was trying to support you.

@nutherissue If DS is moving out shortly is it a big deal? It’s clearly annoying and I get that. I would possibly try and get DS to see all relevant safety checks before he moves in next time. An agent can be a buffer zone between a dodgy LL and the students. Did DS see the house on an open house day? Were the students around at that point? Did he get intel on the LL? Can someone be there on the open house day to quietly speak to viewers?

Plenty of people are tenants but students are a bit different. They don’t see it as their home. Landlords can, and do, play fast and loose but DS is leaving soon (is he working right now?) so he’s now probably going to have to accept it was a poor experience and learn from it. It’s a bit late to improve the LL.

Maybe I blinked and posted to "aibu" by mistake but, as I tried to explain, I really wasn't looking for judgement, just information about tenants rights. 🙃

Tenants have lots and lots of rights.He should read his contract but could almost certainly refuse an open house, and demand single viewings with the stated notice.

The point I was trying to make was that, as in other things in life, there is a decision to be made as to whether you push those rights. Or whether you allow some flex in the hope of building a relationship with a bit of give and take. There are other things down the path where a bit of landlord goodwill could work to his advantage. Life isn't just about rights.

Its not everyone, but when did it happen that people became so focussed on their own rights, unwilling to empathise or see the benefit of building relationships.

The same is true of landlords. We see on MN all the time landlords who are not fulfilling the absolute bare minimum of their legal obligations towards tenants. They are not protecting deposits, they expect to show up to inspect the property without adequate notice, they want to raise rent without adequate notice, they don't want to do basic repairs. What kind of relationship can such landlords build? Only one of the tenant paying money and the landlord receiving money.

He doesn't have to accept any viewings if he doesn't want to. The clause in the contract can say what it wants but it isn't legally enforceable - tenants are entitled to quiet enjoyment of the property and they do not have to permit viewings whilst they are in situ.

I don't think it is true the tent can refuse viewings where the contract allows it. Even Shelter says "Check your most recent tenancy agreement to see if it says you must let potential buyers view the property. You do not have to agree to allow viewings unless your agreement says so. If you do not agree to viewings there is a risk that your landlord might take steps to end an assured shorthold tenancy"

My son lets a house (to a family) via a big letting agency and the contract says on 24 hours of notice viewings are allowed "in the last two months showing the Property to prospective Tenants who will be accompanied by the Landlord's
Agent, and putting up a ‘To Let’ sign;"

(tenant - not "tent" - Freudian slip there....)

Yes it is true.

It doesn't matter what is in the contract, it doesn't trump the Landlord and Tenant Act which establishes the tenants right to quiet enjoyment of the property - the only time the landlord can enforce access is for a safety issue.

@nutherissue if your son & housemates don't like this viewing arrangement, they can refuse it. They can refuse any viewings until they move out if they prefer. If the landlord kicks up a fuss, they can remind him of the max size of the fine that he will face if they choose to report him for not having an electrical safety certificate or HMO license (£30k) - has he also done the gas safety, epc and provided the details of where their security deposit is being held?

Any household insurance they have will be void if anything goes missing during an open house.

@Needmoresleep didn't your EA do annual inspections during those 4 years?

’Life isn’t just about rights’, you say, when you’re charging them 800 quid each for a student house. You don’t say how many of them there are, but presumably you’ll be getting a pretty tidy monthly sum. Of course it’s not acceptable that your previous tenants caused damage, but the new tenants are entitled (morally as well as legally) to have a decent home to move in to. Wouldn’t it be lovely of you to respect your obligations rather than moaning about the entitled youth of today?

Have they asked for the landlord for security so people don't just pocket their belongings? In the US people have found that open houses can be right for thieves to target homes.

witheringrowan so do you think Shelter have the law wrong when they say if the contract allows viewings and notice is given etc and the agent accompanies then viewings may take place? If so why not contact Shelter and require them to change that advice?