Another civil engineering thread

[crestofawafer]

I've accompanied DC to a few open days now and the Civil Engineering talks and lab tours have all been similar. However, the UCL admissions tutor pitched their course as being more practical than most. He even said that he thought it might be difficult to write a personal statement that would appeal to both Imperial and UCL. My DC leans towards practical, but looking back at the other talks (Warwick, Bristol, Bath and, in fact, Imperial) they all showcased their practical elements to the point that it's quite hard to judge which are the most practical ones. They all had pictures of students on field trips, building bridges, and doing group projects. We probably need to analyse the website blurb a bit more closely to see if they give percentages for exam versus practical assessment, but in the meantime, does the Mumsnet hive mind have a view on which courses are the most hands-on?

Hi, OP -

The person you want is @tizerorfizz. Her husband owns or owned a successful CE firm for many years and may be recently retired. She knows a lot about the field.

I am writing as a former RG STEM admissions tutor to gently query the fact that you’ve listed CE programmes with a very homogeneous set of entry requirements. @tizerorfizz will make an excellent case for doing an MEng degree, as it leads to Chartered status.

Now there is a lot of flexibility during Y1 and Y2 between the BSc and MEng programmes. You need to be doing well (as defined by your School) at the end of Y2 to remain on MEng; if you are on BSc and doing well at that point, it is easy to transfer over. I cannot promise no exceptions to this but I have never heard of one

Of the places you listed, Warwick may keep AAA for the BSc in CE going forward (not sure) and requires an A star for MEng. Imperial want A star A star A or 4 A levels. The other 3 places I think want A star A A.

On paper that leaves Warwick BSc as the only reasonable insurance choice (unless DS is predicted 3 A stars); however it is by no means guaranteed that he will get that particular offer. And it is easier to be on the MEng programme from the beginning, for your dealings with Student Finance, if you plan to go that route.

My School is a selecting school with a standard requirement above 3 A’s. I’ve seen exams go wrong for the most unexpected people to know that everyone needs a proper Insurance choice unless they are willing to do a gap year. There is no chance the Schools you have listed will be open in Extra or Clearing.

Insurance doesn’t mean ‘second favourite’. It means ‘somewhere I could expect to be admitted after a bad exam, where I could be reasonably happy’.

Best wishes to DS. I hope he will eventually ger his Firm choice

Thanks @poetryandwine , he's predicted three A-stars and one A, and he does have a potential insurance choice - I just didn't list it.

He's my DC2, so we know the basics. Also, he's only in year 12, so is still deciding which unis to apply to.

That’s great news; the world is his oyster.

When the UCL admissions tutor told you that, he (?) wasn’t necessarily cognisant that he was speaking to a student of this calibre. Those PGs matter a great deal from an admissions perspective.

Your DS will do best writing a PS that reflects his true interests. In the unlikely event it puts a School off, that School was a bad fit for him

He said it to everyone at the talk, not just my DC

I don't have any specific insight but it occurs to me that it may not be so much that imperial doesn't want students with a practical bent, as that perhaps they do want ones who can cope with/enjoy some of the harder mathematical/computer modelling type of elements more than elsewhere?

A closer look at their curricula and options may be informative

I got the impression UCL are pitching a unique selling point to distinguish themselves from some other CivEng courses, and especially Imperial. At UCL, maths and physics are not required subjects, whereas they are very much compulsory subjects at Imperial. They want creative team-players, who enjoy practical work, so expect the ps to reflect that.

@crestofawafer I would say UCL does really want maths! They have a statement that says “if you are not studying maths” which indicates to me, it’s unusual not to!
Most will have physics too.

I think some courses are developing more practical aspects as a backlash against the mathematical courses that were beginning to produce mathematical engineers with not good enough understanding of what problem they are actually solving. Therefore analysis of the problem is key, then the solution.

DH would employ engineers from any of these unis but you have missed out Sheffield. It’s a fantastic uni for civils/structural engineering. I’d add them in. Easy enough to find ones the next tier down and dc would still be very employable.

Yes to MEng. Both ICE and IStructE have resources for 6th formers. Have a look. He can contact local consultancies to see if he can do some work shadowing or a taster day. Going on site is obviously difficult but read up about projects. Most decent consulting engineers have web sites with details on them.

DH was a young constructor he tells me! Model railway (very large in school grounds) and lots of kits at home. I know - very old fashioned! However saying what you are interested in, why and what you have learnt from talks and projects you have read about is a good starting place. Eg why is The Gherkin a triangle design? Why are triangles important in structures? Go and have a look at HS2 above ground in Bucks. It’s a huge CE project. What about the bridge design strikes you as interesting? For many unis, the ps is a tie breaker. You cannot be a 18 year old expert but you can show interest and that you think like an engineer.

There’s plenty of work here and abroad. Most engineers specialise eventually but a broad course keeps options open because he might prefer structures over civils. You don’t know unless you try.

"They have a statement that says “if you are not studying maths” which indicates to me, it’s unusual not to! Most will have physics too."

Yes, most will. Mine does. But they actively encourage students with other subjects to apply (if you watch their online open day talk you'll see what I mean). They want them to be interested in maths and physics, and competent at them (with a minimum of a 7 at GCSE), but they don't have to have done A levels in them.

I think it’s very hard to go from GCSE maths to structural engineering! I do agree you should not have to be a maths nerd but no A level maths study at all is a stretch. So, for a top uni, it’s unusual and did they get any students to speak who had done this degree with no maths A level? That might have been the interesting conversation.

Hm, I bet there are quite a few budding engineers - sounds like your DS is one - with both the maths and the practical aptitudes who can appeal to imperial and UCL. Even if imperial will also take theoretical maths nerds and UCL may take less mathsy hands on types. Does imperial do a mathsy aptitude test? If so, then maybe that side is covered and the PS can focus more on practical projects the applicant has done.

OK, I might begin to understand the comment by the tutor but I think it a false dichotomy.
I think UCL want students with an intuitive knack for engineering. Perhaps they are trying to attract those who, as children, loved to take small appliances apart in order to understand them, and put them back together. Those who loved building model bridges. ‘Like to get their hands dirty,’ metaphorically. With an emphasis on natural collaboration.

Imperial Engineering generally pride themselves on their mathematical and computer models. Ultimately stuff gets made, of course, and there are many opportunities (or requirements, depending on your perspective) for collaboration.

By the same token I am confident that UCL engineers are trained in the use of software. Hopefully they learn some programming. The question concerns pedagogical emphasis. I know Imperial has recently become concerned with how to select the attributes of a good engineer and is looking st this somewhat formally. It seems that UCL CE is considering the same question from a different angle.

More than ever I think DS should write a PS reflecting his personal values, to maximise his chances of ending up with the best fit. I also second the high opinion of Sheffield Engineering held by @TizerorFizz (I am not associated with Sheffield).

Yes! Great idea.

Though I don’t know whether CE at Imperial have an entrance test

I just looked, appears they use the ESAT and specify one physics and 2 maths modules from it.

It may be that depending on his preferences and aptitudes, they might all have a good amount of practical stuff but some might have more of the heavy maths side than he really wants to do?

My gut reaction is that Imperial is a more dense course. See first year comparisons attached.Imperial has more topics. UCL does field trips that look interesting.