Maths degree with a lower further maths prediction.

[Joltek]

DD wants to do a maths degree and has just got her predicted grades through of 3 A* and a B with the B in further maths. I’m trying to work out the best unis to be looking at for her but a bit confused as to how the B in further maths affects things. She would also like to do a year abroad in Spain if that makes any difference. Any suggestions as to which unis to look at with these grades would be gratefully received.

Hi, OP -

With the PG of B the question is whether DD is enjoying FM? What she is getting out of it isn’t hugely likely to facilitate a Maths degree.
I hasten to add that I don’t see a red flag here. Often it’s just a question of priorities and intellectual maturity. But FM is more similar to degree level Maths than A level Maths is, so not liking it would be a reason to rethink.

Some Maths degree programmes, even very good Russell Group and similar ones, do not require (or strongly recommend) FM. The ones that do tend to be looking for, and more importantly teaching to, those with an A. For the sake of getting a good foundation which is crucial in Maths, DD might do best on a programme where most do not have FM.

Then the question is, although we now assume she likes FM if she is going ahead, are her interests best served by continuing? As a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor - in a Maths adjacent School where most have at least grade A in FM - I would find PGs of three A stars more impressive than a fourth which was a B in FM, for any STEM degree. And it seems easier on the candidate

I hope this message sounds fundamentally positive, because your DD is in a very strong position overall. It’s just that for whatever reason FM isn’t really sticking right now, and in order for her to thrive as a UG a Teaching and Learning approach that caters for this will help her immensely.

A year abroad sounds great. It won’tcaffect this except insofar as there are usually academic requirements on eligibility

I did Maths but not FM before my maths degree. I hated the first two years of my maths degree (and only got through because it was joint honours so it was only 50% maths time). I was out of my depth in the first lecture which was a shock as I’d got full marks on some of the A Level papers.

The degree was so much different to A Level, and I’ve since been told is closer to further maths, that I’d if have known I would’ve chosen a different degree.

If she is struggling with further maths I would be truly concerned about how enjoyable or successful a full maths degree would be.

It would perhaps be worth her thinking about which modules she is stronger and weaker in. Some maths degrees are probably more applied than others, eg some may focus on statistics (which may br more useful in the real world than much of the more esoteric pure maths).

What are her other two subjects?

Scottish unis are more relaxed on FM plus the older unis do joint maths and Spanish. However if its like my day there are limited options for maths and a language. Looked up my DDs uni (Edinburgh) and its Salamanca which is recommended but other Spanish unis are possible.

If DD is working reasonably near capacity in FM, the concerns of PPs are good ones. A Joint Hobs degree or a Scottish university, starting in Y1, might be good ideas.

Also @ErrolTheDragon ’s advice to analyse strengths and weaknesses is excellent

I think you are me @behindthemall

I would not do a maths degree unless you are the best of the best.

Something related to finance / business might go better with a year abroad too. I did maths plus a language, and had no choice but to do maths in the year abroad as you can’t just not do maths for a year in the middle of a degree. A different degree combination might give more options for work or studies in the year abroad.

Maybe you are me… I also did a language as my joint honour and did the year abroad that way (which I would recommend, even for someone not that strong at language at A Level provided they find it interesting).

Although I was lucky that I didn’t need to do maths in my year out and so did a language course at a language school attached to a university in my study abroad country.

I did enjoy my third year of maths when I could choose my modules though and could move away from pure theory and do more discrete/decision based modules.

In hindsight I would have done something finance/business/law with the language, but I ended up in a legal adjacent finance type role which might be influencing my hindsight!

She is doing computer science and Spanish. Really enjoys her further maths, not got to the bottom of what she’s struggling with yet - got a progress review with her teacher that I hope will help.

Sounds like a great combination of subjects which would allow for various future possibilities.

One thing to check - do you know if the predicted grades for her classmates are as she'd expect? I know when dd was doing her a levels (and mine too, back in the dark ages) the grades in mocks were generally quite a bit lower than the final results. One reason for this is that probably more than any other subjects, maths really does require a huge amount of practice, umpteen past papers towards the end. It may be that she will up her game considerably - but that doesn't help during applications if the prediction doesn't match her potential.

Thank you for your reply, it’s given me a lot to think about. She will be very disappointed not to try for a maths degree I think, has no interest in finance or anything, all about beauty of maths and the big ideas. Tbh I had no idea you were expected to be all A’s to be able to manage it. Further maths is her favourite lesson so I’m hoping to get some idea of what she’s struggling with to help her decision. She’s not really set on any particular uni so maybe if we apply to ones that are a bit lower she will have a better chance of a course she can get on with.

Further maths is her favourite lesson so I’m hoping to get some idea of what she’s struggling with to help her decision.

One specific think to explore may be whether she's having trouble grasping any concepts or if it's more that she's not mastered answering the questions yet. Apart from needing loads of practice, there are some obvious things such as you really do need to show your workings.

Please don’t discourage a girl like this from maths!! Perhaps refocus the question to where /how she should go for a maths degree since there are some knowledgeable people on here. I have a maths degree, jointly with an arts degree (not the uk) I never considered anything else.

But she is doing further maths, whereas you didn't. A B in further maths is a world away from no further maths at all..All further maths candidates are good at maths, so getting a B is great.

I visited a few maths departments with my DS and, apart from the top end, they all seemed ready to welcome students who had no FM at all, e.g. Nottingham seemed very nurturing, with lots of help available.

@Joltek has your DD considered any Scottish unis? The first year there will be like a repeat of year 13, so a gentle introduction.

Please don't let anyone put her off doing a maths degree if that's what she wants to do!

I hope you will be getting some insights at the review, OP.

Yes to @Codlingmoths ! I love the big ideas, also, and fully believe there are good Maths options for DD. I hope you took that from my first post.

@ErrolTheDragon could well be right that this is about practice. FM is much the most difficult of DD’s subjects. If she is allocating the same amount of time or brainpower to each, which seems a reasonable plan at first glance, the PG differential is about what I would expect.

I respect that DD isn’t interested in Maths with Finance etc. But Computer Science also has some very Big Ideas and overlaps quite a lot with Maths. (One of the 7 $1M Maths Challenges from the Clay Institute is in the overlap). A Level Computing is plebian by comparison, not that I am knocking it. Perhaps DD could look at Maths and CS, if only to reject it thoughtfully?

It also depends on which bits of maths she likes. My DD did further maths and the modules they did included mechanics - which she hated and struggled with, yet pure and stats and decision were fine. She is now doing a maths degree and has purposely chosen the course such that there is very little mechanics! I would say that if it is a particular modules that is pulling her grade down, it is perfectly possible to still do a maths degree.

It is also worth thinking about a joint degree - maths and comp sci is a fairly normal combination. Maths and Spanish is a little harder! Also consider courses where "free choice" modules from other courses are part of the options - eg York allows this in the maths department and you can choose modules from different departments including languages.

It is definitely worth drilling into the teacher's rationale for the predicted B for FM. It sounds like your DD is doing Maths and FM in parallel, as my DCs did. In their case, they did the Further Stats and Further Decision Maths options in Y12 and the FM Pure was largely saved to Y13. One of my DC loved their pure maths, which meant they ended Y12 with a lower PG than mid-autumn of Y13 when performance really accelerated way. It was visa versa with the other DC. It is also worth making the teacher aware of maths degree ambitions so any PGs are carefully considered and nuanced, rather than just projected from current performance in a sub-set of the syllabus.

It is also worth your DD really studying the course detail and options for a variety of unis. Financial Mathematics degrees (lots of unis), MORSE degrees (Warwick, Southampton, Lancaster and Cardiff) and data science degrees (eg U of Bath, Lancaster) veer the maths component towards stats; CompSci and Maths joint degrees (lots of unis) veer the maths towards the pure, I believe (happy to be corrected on the latter).

I think it is great your DD is doing FM. My DD boosted her confidence by studying for and taking the TMUA in the autumn of Y13. Her overall score wasn't sellar but she held her own and got a good score of 6.5 in the second problem solving paper which encouraged her to push on with pure in Y13. She went to a comp and, prior to the TMUA, signed up to one of the low cost/no cost AMSP online courses (6 one hour sessions) to understand how to think in a different way mathematically. I mention the AMSP specifically because I am aware from posts on MN that some families instruct tutors in the background throughout Y12 & Y13 but not everyone has the resources for that and, in any event, long term reliance on background tutor support can end up being a double edged sword, in my view. You have to step off that travelator at some point.

My experience is possibly a bit out of date now as I graduated a while ago but I didn't do FM, and got 3 As (before A*s existed at A' level) and did a maths degree at Bath (entry requirements were 3 As).

I'd echo what some others have said about a maths degree being very different to A' level and I found the first term especially very tough as it was the first time I had seen concepts that others had studied in FM A' level. Tbh I nearly dropped out in the first term. But I think there is a big difference between not doing FM at all and doing it but perhaps getting a slightly lower grade - your daughter will at least be familiar with the concepts.

I found my path through the degree by selecting the modules that came most naturally to me (more 'applied' modules rather than 'theory' ones) and ignoring the others. I am now a qualified actuary (so career in a maths related field) and got through the actuarial exams quicker than average.

I don't think a slightly lower grade in FM should make too much difference - maybe if she was planning to apply to Oxbridge but plenty of good unis won't worry about it. It's great that she wants to study maths!

Thanks very much for info and views. She has come home from her progress reviews a bit quiet for a couple of days but today told me she’s decided she’s going to carry on with further maths for now, opting for statistics and try really hard to improve on the things she’s learnt already. Then if she’s not getting better by the time her ucas needs to go in will drop it and her teacher says she can carry on going to the lessons as it will be useful but not do the exam. She hopes she will have more idea of where she wants to apply by then and things will be clearer. I’m not really sure it’s the right thing to do or not but seems to be what they’ve agreed on for now. She found a maths with Spanish degree at Sheffield that she likes the look of that only needs ABB and is lowering her sights a bit. I had no idea how difficult this all would be!

That sounds like a good plan to me. Maybe over the summer she could try a few past papers for the parts she's learned so far. I really do think fm performance can improve when they've had more practice and as the concepts crystallise.

I wonder if @NobleGiraffe is around? (Shes the best source of knowledge on school maths I know of)

Sheffield is a fab university. Super Maths staff and students love the place

@Joltek having a language can be a big differentiator when applying for jobs, so is a good move.

My son did a maths degree at a very good uni which requires A*/As. He got a B for further maths at A Level and he was very lucky as he'd been given a contextual offer. He graduated with a first class in MMaths so I wouldn't say your daughter should be giving up on what she wants to do.

This is fantastic

Both my DDs studied FM. Both found it hard work. DD1 needed an A grade in it for NatSci at Cambridge, which she achieved and then found the compulsory Maths modules in y1 there pretty tough. DD2 didn't get an offer from Cambridge and needed something like 2 A stars and an A for her uni choice, which meant she could drop FM. She had a chat with the Head of Maths who then spoke to me too. DD was given 4 options:

take the full A level, spend every spare moment on it and see if she could get her grade up;
take the full A level but only spend nominal time on it with the expectation of a C, D or E grade;
take the AS level, so get some credit for the work done so far;
drop it altogether.

After some thought, DD took the AS level, which meant that the Maths she needed in the 1st year of her degree was pretty much revision.

DD2's degree was also NatSci but had the option of a year's study abroad. Due to Covid she was only out there for 4 months, but had a brilliant time firstly online then out in Tokyo. She took some science modules but also History of Contemporary Japan for example. It was the making of her.