Doctor Parent Help

[mumsneedwine]

Here you go

pivoinerose we get a regular influx of high flying Australian specialist trained doctors to further their expertise and research with us funded by ANZ scholarships. Their experience gives a little bit of insight into the competition for certain posts in Australia. This recruitment site gives a fair summary of what is available for most international medical graduates.

https://www.odysseyrecruitment.com/australias-most-sought-after-medical-specialities

I have observed that more and more UK consultant posts are filled by overseas specialists and they are often outstanding as well as ambitious. Doctors’ salaries here are higher than most other countries including many European countries and therefore posts here are still attractive just as Australia and New Zealand are for UK trained junior doctors. However obviously salary and work load is just one component in career fulfilment.

Thank you sendsummer. That's extremely interesting. There's one very obvious problem for young doctors who may have a partner whose own career can't progress in a remote area of Australia.

I can certainly see that there might be possibilities for doctors who can't get through the training bottleneck in the UK, but also that Australia isn't necessarily a plain sailing alternative. Perhaps for a young, free and single doctor (or a couple, both doctors) who are happy with the specialties on offer.

My understanding (although I could be totally wrong, so somebody who has researched this better might correct me), is not so much that they prioritise their own graduates, but that they prioritise Australian (and New Zealand) passport holders.
The way the Australian immigration system works as I understand it is that in order to get a visa that enables you to work there, you have to show your value to Australia, ie it may be a requirement of your work visa that you take jobs that are otherwise difficult to fulfil. ie it is not so much the hospitals saying - Oh you have a degree from an Australian medical school, we take you in preference, but saying, oh you have an Australian passport, we will take you in preference, and can only fill that job with a non-Australian if there are no Australians available to do the job.
The difference would an Australian passport holder who trained eg at a British medical school. My understanding is that such a candidate would be ranked equally to someone trained at an Australian medical school.
I know someone with an Australian passport (Australian mother) who lives in Britain and is seriously dating a young doctor (trained in England). The assumption seems to be that if she can get him an Australian passport (not so easy even if they marry, but assuming), he then would not be restricted in where he had to work.

It’s not all bad for the F1s . I’m a consultant and in our team , we do our best to look after the juniors - take them for coffee, ask them about themselves, team meals out , training , support . We get decent feedback so we must be doing an ok job.

Less good in other areas of the same NHS trust sadly.

@Bimkom I think it's a bit of both. They give priority to staff trained at an Australian Uni when filling posts, so IMGs get what's left for sponsorship. So if a citizen you don't need to be sponsored so can apply as a resident.

My DD has had a fantastic F1 and excited for F2. After that she'd love to stay in the NHS as a doctor, but it's all dependent on the number of jobs available. She never expected to be facing unemployment when she applied 7 years ago. She also never expected to be paid £15 an hour.

Why are we employing PAs, at vastly more money, while our trained doctors and nurses struggle to find work.

Do nurses struggle to find work? Surely only the top bands outside London face limited posts?

I can see why PAs might have a place in the system but not why more medical students are being trained if there is no widening of the bottle neck further up.

@pivoinerose Neely qualified nurses can't get jobs. So finished Uni but no job. Mad isn't it ?

Why can PAs be on the doctors rota with less training (but more pay) but doctors can't work as PAs (for more money and can prescribe and work independently). Please someone explain for me 🤷‍♀️

www.nursingtimes.net/news/education/new-nurses-struggle-to-find-jobs-despite-national-shortage-20-06-2024/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68849847.amp

www.dauk.org/news/2024/05/03/frustration-for-final-year-medical-students-still-to-be-allocated-jobs/

I know some who have yet to find out their first job, they start on 25th July. Only found out the place they are working 7 days ago, so having to find accommodation and move their lives hundreds of miles away from family and friends with v little notice. No choice in their location as the random algorithm gave them their 14th choice of deanery.

Become a doctor we tell our young people, it's a noble profession.

Sorry, I am angry. Currently running a UCAT day with year 12s from several schools and I'm finding it hard to be enthusiastic for them. Amazing students, bright, kind, want to help humans, but knowing the cesspit I am helping them into is making me so so mad.

Off to rewatch Coldplay and MJF as need to get more positive. And another coffee.

She also never expected to be paid £15 an hour.
I am not sure why, salaries would have been available to view before she started medical school.

For those who prefer facts and context about UK medical salaries (and current number of doctors per level employed in the NHS) the Nuffield trust examined this last year.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/exploring-the-earnings-of-nhs-doctors-in-england

Yes absolutely. Another madness to add to the list.

@sendsummer because in 2018 when she applied the salary for an F1 was worth 20% more in real terms than today. It's called FPR, you might have heard of it ? If wages had grown by the amount expected she would be in £20 an hour. Not hard to understand???

For the hard of understanding

Am I allowed to join? Not a doctor parent yet but dd starting her medicine degree in September. I have so many concerns!!!

That is a really useful article sendsummer. Again, thanks.

I'm a bit puzzled by the headcount though - it reads as though the NHS is top heavy. Surely that isn't correct? (Well, it obviously is :) - but could you confirm that I'm not missing something obvious because I could well be).

Sluj’s DS FY3 post was replaced by 2 doctors, possibly because they wanted a more stable workforce and his exact post was used to part finance that.

Issues with bottlenecks vary between specialities. With some of the most competitive specialities, like cardiothoracic there are too many fully trained (post CCT) doctors without consultant posts but a surplus of consultants.
It will take very careful planning with sufficient granularity. Also the staffing cost for any expansion will be unknown with ongoing disputes. When staffing costs are higher there will be less funds for new training posts and senior doctors to train them.

Many will already have worked out the smoothest path to gaining a training post. but my advice would be to start ticking the boxes required for applications (eg audits etc) from FY2 and to get into the habit of doing even the equivalent of just 20 minutes extra reading daily from FY1.

But PAs start on £45,000 and F1s on £32,000 (who can practice and work autonomously in F2).

So the money is there to employ 100,000 PAs (NHS workforce plan) but not increase speciality training posts - which earn £43,000.

The money is there. The doctors are there. But they'd rather employ non doctors and nurses ??
Why ??

Sorry pivoinerose was interrupted in my above post so crossposted. However it part answers your question. Also each of junior doctors’ stages is only for a year whilst consultants posts cover many years so will appear top heavy

mumsneedwine suggest you read the Nuffield trust article.
For example <The trend reveals the importance of the choice of baseline when looking at changes over time – the pay scales of junior doctors and consultants have fallen in real terms over the last decade or so, but over a longer timeframe they have actually fared well compared to inflation.>

I suppose another question is value to society in terms of salary costs compared to for example nurses and teachers.

Well actually the time spent as an F1/ consultant was exactly the sort of obvious thing I meant :)

That's quite a big rabbit hole there though sendsummer: the value to society one. But definitely an interesting rabbit hole.