Oxford or Cambridge - law degree (knowing the odds are against either!)

[Swottinguponlaw]

My daughter wants to be a high-flying commercial barrister and she has been advised to read a law degree. I know stats say that 50% of lawyers do not study law at uni but she has been told that does not apply for budding BARRISTERS applying to top commercial chambers. Most of them do study law and have a first. Is our intelligence correct on this - noting that DD wants to be a barrister not a solicitor?

How to choose between Oxford and Cambridge for law? DD likes both cities. Are there substantive differences in the two courses?

Neither my DH or I know the slightest about this so any guidance welcome. Thank you

Lassi my DC were fortunate to have grown up a couple of miles from a superselective grammar which also happened to be our nearest secondary school by about three miles. So having passed the 11 plus it would have been mad to send them to the failing catchment comp in the other direction. All of them were above average in their cohorts in terms of grades and several were right at the very top. Quite a bit above average within the cohort is a good starting point.

The current LLM at Cambridge was called the LLB in my day Tizer! I agree it's confusing for the more mature :)

Just seen this on the FAQs on the Law web page. It talks about Astars and As at gcse! Has no one updated it?

I don’t think anyone would blame you for your choice. We don’t live anywhere near a grammar school but I’m sure I would have had my dc sit the 11+ if we did.

PPE rather than Law @Lassi but DD had 4 x 9s, 3 x 8s, 2 x 7s and 1 x 6 in the first year of numerically graded GCSEs. These results were exceptionally good for her school.

Agree with the pp who said that law/non law really doesn’t matter for the bar, even the top commercial chambers, and Oxford v Cambridge is also irrelevant.

I’m a solicitor and in my experience (of instructing barristers over the last 10 years) more of them tend to have the BCL (Oxford law masters level) than the Cambridge equivalent, but at undergrad it’s about 50:50 law/non law and Oxford/Cambridge.

It’s very easy to look up the educational backgrounds of the current pupils and juniors at the top chambers to see the level that is expected.

Thanks @Dearover. That’s a bit better but not a million miles away from DC’s results.

She also wasn't predicted straight A*s for her A levels, did very well in the TSA and obviously had to meet exactly the same AAA offer as other humanities students.

One thing to factor in if you're completely focused on aiming for the top end of the Commercial Bar is that you can't do the Oxford BCL or Cambridge LLM without having read Law at undergrad (and also got a First unless there are strong mitigating circumstances). I'm not clear about the newer MCL at Cambridge - perhaps that's more open? There's no doubt that a BCL or Cambridge LLM helps. My view for my own DC would be that it's not actually super healthy to fixate on getting a pupillage and tenancy in a top London commercial set. If that's where you end up and enjoy it great, but you risk subjecting yourself to years of unnecessary stress if you try for it but it doesn't quite suit you or you're just not quite as able as the competition. Some of the wording in the original post would trouble me for sure if this were my own DC being talked about esp the opening sentence: 'My daughter wants to be a high-flying commercial barrister'. I would have told my DC to keep their minds wide open; that they should meander through a law degree and see which areas interest them, not pre-determine the outcome (even if the money is good/ because there's more to life etc).

@Karolinska Im not sure that is correct - or at least it wasn’t a few years ago - I know people who have done both BCL and the Cambridge LLM (as it then was) who had done the GDL (ie law conversion). Both had Oxbridge firsts in other degrees mind you.

Oh ok very happy to stand corrected :) All the people I knew/ know read Law but that could of course be coincidence. The Cambridge LLM page does specify 'First Class degree in law' and the BCL page says 'The BCL is our world-renowned taught graduate course in law, designed to serve outstanding law students from common law backgrounds'. I checked both when Tizer mentioned that her DD had friends who had done the LLM having read another subject at undergrad because that hadn't been my experience. But I guess both unis must make an exception for students who have got distinctions on the GDL if you know people with that profile.

Gosh it ramps up the cost even further though. Another c. £26k for that LLM or BCL year. Not for the faint hearted, or the less well off.

@Swottinguponlaw so we can help you, where are you based? What year is your DD in currently? Does she have her predicted A level grades yet?

Oxford may make lower offers than C (generally 3 x A at A level) but in order to be in that position your DD either needs to have an exceptional set of results from a selective school or a decent set of results in comparison with her cohort from a less selective one (contextual offer). A sweep of 11 x 9’s from a top school would be considered less of an achievement (and rightly so) than a mix of 7,8 and 9 from a school ranked ‘good’ in a more economically deprived area.

For both, your DD should consider entering the Law essay competitions at both O and C and should try and attend the access programmes (if she falls into the criteria). Obviously a visit to both is a requirement.

The Cambridge LLM expressly says they want a law degree. The MCL is the flexible one. See my earlier post - it used to have be LLM Commercial. It’s possible to do that with a first from elsewhere in a different subject and after GDL.

I think many non law degree barristers wait for GDL until deciding for certain what they want to do.It’s really their first encounter with law. Obviously much more thought has been given before the Barrister training course by law students, as you would expect. I certainly agree that being inflexible isn’t a great approach and if you find great enjoyment in an unexpected area of law, then pursue that. Many Barristers can make a very good living at most areas of law.

'My daughter wants to be a high-flying commercial barrister'. I would have told my DC to keep their minds wide open; that they should meander through a law degree and see which areas interest them

Completely agree - though I hesitated to say anything as the OP has stated she knows nothing about the legal profession. Pretty sure if her daughter pursues this route they’ll both gain a more in depth understanding of how careers might develop (or not).

@Karolinska and @TizerorFizz here are the BCL and LLM entrance requirements, just fyi.

Admittedly they do both say that entrance without a law degree is exceptional/rare. Those are the people who go on to the top chambers though.

She is only in year 11 and I thought you could apply to either Oxford or Cambridge - not both?

Wow, give me whatever your kids were drinking 😂

Thank you. We were told have to be in year 12 to apply for Oxbridge open days (currently sitting GCSEs in year 11)?

Thank you for all replies, particularly from those who have barrister DC like @TizerorFizz and @Karolinska . This is a brave new world to us and so competitive. DD is finishing Y11 at moment and at an ‘Inadequate’ comprehensive but predicted eleven grade 9s and just got 6th form offer for top grammar school where they are big on extra curricular (law soc and debating soc included). I hope a high-achieving classmates will inspire her and spur her on coz she has never had that so far. The competitiveness of law is hard at the best of times I am sure but particularly when you have a perfectionist child who always wants to be top of the class

@Swottinguponlaw I took DS after his GCSEs to an Oxford open day. They are very unstructured - no one is checking names so no need to wait until year 12. Quite handy to go a year early to get a bit of an idea and there are lots of subject talks so I used it as a way to clarify course choices in general as well as to orient at Oxford. Can't remember if I fibbed on the registration or not - there is no problem in doing so.

Definitely go. No need to register and useful to see some colleges.

Sounds like your DD has a great chance with those results. She’ll also be eligible to join the outreach programmes. Follow o and c law on insta and then the colleges to get a heads up on dates. Good luck to her!

@ParentsTrapped Cambridge does have the MCL. But it’s a very small course. There appears to have been a change in what’s offered at Cambridge. DDs friends have the LLM in Commercial Law. Passed in 2017 after GDL and Barristers Training Course but before pupilage. I know for a fact her friends with the LLM in Commercial Law don’t have a law undergrad degree. They have History. The MCL says they will consider people who have experience but the LLM is law undergrad route only so this seems to have changed. I cannot quite see why you would remove seriously intelligent people from these courses because they have converted to law. DDs friends are extremely successful (as coveted by OP’s DD).

Cambridge also has open days on July 4/5. The cities have quite a different feel so if you're both up for it there's no harm visiting both.
I have no specific advice about law, but having read your update, after exams, I would make try and prepare your daughter for the transition to sixth form. It can be quite a shock going from top of the class at a failing comp to suddenly finding yourself in a class with a bunch of well educated, intelligent people. I wasn't remotely prepared for this and I floundered for a while. I didn't have much of a relationship with my parents so had no one to talk to about it. But it was hard. Just something to be aware of.
Best of luck with it all.

This doesn’t matter really for the purposes of this thread but the Cambridge LLM isn’t for those who have studied law at undergrad only - I’ve posted the entrance requirements above. It never was (I also have friends who did it post law conversion), and it still isn’t. The screenshot above is from the current website. It does say in “rare and exceptional circumstances” though.

But if OP’s daughter wants to study law anyway this is all irrelevant.