Cambridge/oxford - really don’t know anything

[pastapesto]

DS is going into his 6th year (Scottish school) and has done remarkably well in his Higher year. Top of the school. A couple of folk have suggested applying to Cambridge or Oxford but it’s really not something we know anything about. He is clearly very bright but he is also Autistic and I am not sure he would do well in things like interviews. Possibly it’s just too big of a leap. I don’t know if I should be encouraging him to try at least or not. Feels like there is a lot to learn about how you apply and I don’t know anyone who has ever been. Feels daunting.

The advice on this thread is all excellent.

The only things I'd add/emphasise:

Re. becoming fixated: will he be devastated if he doesn't get in? If so, be careful, because that's quite a likely outcome for any applicant.

How will he feel if he's not top of his year at uni? What if he's middle of the pack? Bottom third? Bottom fifth? (Just to be clear, nothing you have said makes me think he's not up to it. I'd ask this of any applicant. A fifth of students will be in the bottom fifth. Would it crush him?)

Will he enjoy (or at least manage) the workload? Some students thrive on it (like an earlier poster's son), others will not enjoy it. Even if he's excellent, does he want a big workload or would he rather have something a bit lighter?

If the three above are all good, then I think you have very little to worry about.

Autistic: this is pretty standard!

Cost: Oxbridge not necessarily more expensive (unless you are comparing it to living at home). You might want to consider one of the richer colleges as they tend to have more hardship funds. Once you are there, most colleges will work hard prevent anyone dropping out for financial reasons. (I think many publicly say they want to ensure this never happens. Even if that's not publicly stated, if you go to richer colleges it is certainly the policy privately once you are there).

"Super-curriculars": watch Matt Williams's YouTube videos on this (Jesus College, Oxford). Oxbridge put zero weight on irrelevant extra-curriculars (music, sports, DofE, etc), no matter how impressive. But they do care that their applicants really care about their subject intellectually, and can prove it. So things linked to his course or his intellectual passions: yes they want this. There are many ways to demonstrate this (watch the videos). Perhaps Google "super-curriculars for engineering". It doesn't need to be things that cost money, it just needs to be sincere and material and driven by your son. A good college will make sure they aren't accidentally privileging people who can afford expensive super-curriculars.

Good luck!

Great posts from @CurlyhairedAssassin and from my limited personal knowledge of Cambridge (close friend's DC was there) right on the money.

@pastapesto please look into the money side before saying it won't work. The basic difference will be a tuition fee loan rather than free fees - yes that is a lot of money but it's more of a graduate tax, paid back when earning are high enough. And yes, Cambridge Uni accommodation is cheaper than many places. It would be a real shame for that to stop him applying, if Cambridge would be good for him.

Having lived for years in Oxford about a third of students and staff are autistic I reckon!

Have a look for taster days/ summer schools https://www.etrust.org.uk/ etc- it may be too late this year.
ask his school if they have any contacts with outreach teams from Oxford or Cambridge. Plan to visit- tell college porters he is an applicant and he should be able to see more.

DS is a recently graduated Oxford Physicist and I can also confirm that autistic traits are extremely common.

There is a large volume of work and the pace is fast, but the Oxford method means that you get a lot of support in tutorials. Often 2:1 and for DD sometimes even 1:1.

We have found the pastoral care to be excellent.

The interviews were more of a discussion. They pose a problem and ask how you would try to solve it. If you're struggling they will give hints. I think they want to work out how you would approach problems rather than test your knowledge.

The only thing that might be an issue is the distance. We have had to empty DS and DD's rooms for Christmas and Easter vacs for several years. A complete pain from Manchester but even worse from Scotland.

Have a look at the past papers for Cambridge entrance exams:
https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/how/science-engineering-admission-test#

He won’t need to defend a viewpoint or whatever a pp has said. That would be the case for an arts subject. The interview will be going through maths problems that he will be set on the day.

If you are a low income family, there are lots of bursaries available so the money side should be easier at Cambridge than at other English universities.

Definitely try to get to an open day to get a feel for the place.

Both can work out cheaper as you only pay for accommodation in term time.
I also know that Oxford (not sure about Cambridge) have a special scheme to help support students who might find the transition hard, I think it starts with taster sessions and support throught the year- this is on top of and DSA help.

The only thing that might be an issue is the distance. We have had to empty DS and DD's rooms for Christmas and Easter vacs for several years. A complete pain from Manchester but even worse from Scotland

This is very college dependent for Scottish students whiteroseredrose. DD4 is treated as an international for the purposes of storage over the vacations.

This. Oxford college, they have to pack up their rooms, they all have individual storage but Scottish students are given extra storage. Or possibly my DC asks for it? It’s always been available anyway.

As far as interviews are concerned, if he thinks of it as the verbal equivalent of showing his working for maths problems. The more you talk the more opportunities there are for the interviewers to see how you think and to ask questions to see more.

My daughter who is in her first year at Oxford said to me recently - it is wonderful here as almost everyone is neurodiverse...

Give it a go, he can do some visits and see if he can imagine himself there. The small colleges where you can stay in college each year and life is quite organised actually make it easier in some ways for those who are autistic.

There’s no bad options here, Strathclyde is excellent for engineering. The M Eng courses are 5 years not 4 but he gets funding from SAAS for that.

if your Ds wants to apply for Oxford or Cambridge for Sept 2025 entry then the closing date is October 15th so he needs to get a move on.

Sorry posted too soon. Yes encourage him to investigate it and apply. Don’t worry about it being daunting, it’s the same for every parent when their first child goes to uni. Even if you went to uni yourself, it’s all changed.

Has he spoken to his pupil support / guidance teacher about it? There will be someone who supports “ early applicants “.

3 year degree in most cases not 4 which changes the total debt. 3 short intense terms as well.

Four years for engineering as it's an MEng. (A very small number of Cambridge engineers stop after 3 years with a BA). My DD (and her BF) were Cambridge engineers. They were both very engaged with their subject throughout their school years (building things in their preferred fields). They worked hard but had time for fun too.

For engineering (or anything else really) he should look to see whether the course syllabus meets his needs. It may have a different focus or be too theoretical for example.

This is the first question for sure. Cambridge does General Engineering, with a broad base in the first two years with a lot of maths, and then more specialisation in the second two years - so that they can be accredited in a specific field (DD is an electronics engineer) but with wider knowledge than if they'd done just a single engineering discipline throughout. (Her BF is in aerospace and says this is extremely useful to him).

The Cambridge general engineering course intake is about 450 per year. There's also a separate Chemical Engineering and Biotechnology course. That has somewhat different entry requirements including Chemistry.

Oxford intake I believe is smaller and is called Engineering Science. I'm not sure how its curriculum differs, your DS should look at them all.

But many engineering students prefer to concentrate on one field eg mechanical, or Civil or Chemical etc. - in which case look elsewhere (imperial, Manchester, Southampton, Bristol, Sheffield, various in Scotland .... so many good options!).

There is a huge amount of financial support available for Oxford and Cambridge which is in addition to the SLC loan. For example for Oxford:
https://www.ox.ac.uk/students/fees-funding/assistance/oxford Help if you are struggling during the course
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/fees-and-funding/oxford-support  extra support for students from certain household income brackets

Individual colleges will offer other help, such as travel or internship bursaries, some have extra funds for people coming from specific areas. Accommodation is cheaper because you have shorter terms and don't have to have a full year contract.

This is a good place to start for Oxford outreach which can help you with a lot of your questions. https://www.ox.ac.uk/oxfordforScotland. I'm sure MN posters more familiar with Cambridge can help you find similar info.

OP, older daughter is a NatSci graduate and PhD student at Cambridge. In her 2nd & 3rd years she mentored a couple of Scottish students for something called the Clydeside Project. A quick google suggests they aren't accepting new applicants now but their homepage suggests the following:

CamScot
Zero Gravity
Target Oxbridge
Oxbridge Launchpad
as good schemes to check out.

Each college has part of the UK allocated to it. Scotland is split between Pembroke and Homerton Colleges in Cambridge. I would get your DS to email the schools liaison officer at both.

Oxford also seems keen to help and there is something on their website called Oxford for Scotland.

@pastapesto I've also just spotted this https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/visiting-and-outreach/outreach-events/physics-and-engineering-magdalen-1 It's a taster free residential at Magdalen in Oxford over the summer for students interested in physics or engineering. You have to apply and there's no guarantee he'll be picked, but it is the best way of getting a feel for the place and working out if the environment would suit. Application form looks relatively simple, but has to be done by the 16th June.

Accommodation is cheaper because you have shorter terms and don't have to have a full year contract.

At DDs college the first year accommodation was a 30 week contract - I don't think anywhere is just the 3x8 week 'full terms', there were one or two supervisions and also mock exams beyond that within the 'whole term' periods. Thereafter she opted for 39 week contracts - no clearing out the room in Xmas/easter vacs, she'd stay for part of those to work in the library, consolidating/revising. But because they don't have to deal with commercial rental (Cambridge, I think Oxford may be different?) they don't need to pay anything over the summer.

Cambridge is damp and freezing in winter but calm. Oxford is more temperate and busier - more of a city.

Oxford and Cambridge have almost identical weather though Oxford is wetter than Cambridge. In either case you are talking about a Scottish student so both will seem very warm in comparison!

Academically, he is likely to need A1s in Advanced Highers for Cambridge, not just As. Did he get A1s in his Highers? You will need to check with the school to find this out as the certificate will just say A.

Funding wise, yes he will have to pay ~£30k in tuition fees. However if this is for a 3 year course as opposed to a 4 year course in Scotland then overall it could work out cost-effective: instead of spending an extra year studying he (hopefully) would be working and, as an Oxbridge graduate, earning a decent wage possibly in well excess of £30k. Cost over 4 years in Scotland (excluding living costs which we will assume to be constant) would be £0, cost over 4 years in Oxbridge would be £30k fees - £30 wage = £0.

However if this is for a 3 year course as opposed to a 4 year course in Scotland

It isn't. It's a 4 year MEng. I think the Scottish MEngs are 5 years but that those with very good advanced highers don't always have to do the first year.

Cost over 4 years in Scotland (excluding living costs which we will assume to be constant) would be £0, cost over 4 years in Oxbridge would be £30k fees - £30 wage = £0.

Eh? Scottish engineering graduates don't earn nothing, and oxbridge ones don't get a 30k premium so that's a bogus calculation.

Re climate, Cambridge is one of the driest cities in the U.K., but it can have wind apparently straight from Siberia! Coming from the northwest of England DD appreciated the lack of rain, the cold has never been an issue except occasionally if the Cam freezes too hard for kayaking. (she still lives there, loves the place and it's good for jobs in her type of engineering.)

The economics still work out whether it is 3 vs 4 years or 4 vs 5 years. The point is if you start earning a year earlier that offsets having to pay fees.

If Scottish students graduate a year later then Oxbridge ones then Oxbridge graduates will have a year’s salary under their belts (and have earned a likely salary increment) by the time Scottish engineering students graduate.

Ah, right... but there's the 'if'. A student with grades good enough to be considering oxbridge will likely be eligible for second year entry in the Scottish system. So it'll be 4 years either way.

Hi, my ds is looking at Oxford for physics. There is an entrance exam in October, I think this is the case for engineering too. Not all of the syllabus is covered at a-level I don't know about Scottish highers but worth looking at.

Also I started a post about my son being a young carer and us having no real experience. Some of that maybe useful to you if he qualifies at any uni for extra help. Look at the widening participation criteria. Best of luck xxx

Afaik there's no 'syllabus' for the entry test (PAT, physics aptitude at Oxford I think) or the one for engineering at Cambridge. It just relies on the physics and maths learned inc yr 12 A levels and ability to apply it to novel problems. There are past papers - that's all the prep they should need.