Manchester or Imperial?

[Mooda]

DS has got offers from both the above for maths & physics/ physics & theoretical physics. He was all set to pick Manchester but now can't decide (driven in part I suspect by Imperial being ranked 2nd best uni in world today). I understand the prestige but am concerned he may miss out on the social experience of uni at Imperial. I've also seen it doesn't have a great rep for student support. Any thoughts - anyone got any advice at this 11th hour?

I think the thing to remember is there is no wrong choice here - it’s like choosing between two delicious meals in a restaurant.

My DN had this conflict last year for the same subjects, same universities and chose Manchester. No regrets at all.

I totally agree that he needs to be happy for the next four years, but I think the posters saying that it won't make a difference to his career prospects are being disingenuous. I have an Oxbridge maths degree, and the vast, vast majority of my colleagues that studied in the UK studied at Oxbridge, Imperial, UCL, LSE. He isn't likely to struggle to get a job, no, but he may struggle to get the best jobs. And of course he might not want these jobs, but I don't think you should dismiss them as being comparable academically, because they're simply not.

But the reality is (whether we agree with it or not) that increasingly shortlisting for roles is blind nowadays. It's a very different landscape to ten years ago.

However in all likelihood the very brightest (who will have been more likely to apply to the top universities) will still shine at interview and will still be selected, giving the impression that the university on your CV is all important.

Personally I don't like blind recruitment but it's becoming the norm in my field (law). It does mean that a bright, confident, personable kid from Manchester is just as likely to be picked for interview if they choose to accept their offer from Manchester as if they choose to accept their offer from a university like Imperial. In fact potentially they stand a greater chance with a First from Manchester than a 2.1 from Imperial because the selectors only see the degree classification and not the name of the university (or the school). Statistically it will be easier to get the First from Manchester than from Imperial/Oxbridge due to the fact that the exams are graded on a curve and depend on how others perform and the relative capability of your cohort.

Once you've had your first job of course nobody cares anyway, they're only really interested in your last employer.

Wondering how much to read into this - not great reading
https://felixonline.co.uk/issue/1821/news/physics-department-unhelpful-dismissive-and-two-faced-say-students-2

Cripes! Doesn’t sound good

If you live in Manchester, go to Imperial. Part of the student experience is getting away from your home base.

He will have a lot of fun at Imperial if he likes going out. No issues there.

I take most of the article posted by OP at 14.20 today seriously. However it is now 2 yrs old. There is an implication that the penny had finally dropped and Imperial Physics are finally aware that changes must be made. Against that, real change is always much slower than expected

The bit of the article that gives me pause is the discussion of students’ reluctance to seek help from academics. As much as I support peer to peer teaching and learning, it isn’t always enough. The reluctance to expose your ignorance to your teachers really is worse in Britain than many other countries and works against learning. (IMO the Oxbridge tutorial system is so effective largely because it short circuits this)

I wish students could eavesdrop on academic collaborations, which are rife with stupid questions, friendly insults, swearing, metaphorical hair pulling, etc and a general all round feeling of great ignorance. This is the stuff of which both research insights and friendships are made. But British students seem to think they can only talk to us about what they are already comfortable with.

I wish the Felix article had explored why Imperial students are reluctant to engage with willing staff over their difficulties. Otherwise, cautiously, I accept it at face value and very sadly I agree it would give me pause. Definitively? Maybe not, but I came up through a harsh system

I did Maths at Imperial (graduated late 90s). I had the best time ever there! I would describe it as the typical student experience. There are so many societies and you can meet people from other unis in London too at intercollegiate societies. Honestly, the best years of my life.

You will find your tribe at any uni, and turn the uni experience into anything you want.

My eldest DS applied there (sadly rejected), and will be encouraging DS2 to apply there when his time comes.

I was at Imperial today by chance and it seemed very buzzy, lots of students sitting out in the sun. They all looked very 'normal student' and a wide rabge of ethnicities and nationalities, unlike some other London unis (UCL). I also go to Manchester Uni a lot, also for work, and the buildings and surrounds are much, much more rund down and more of a dump, I have to say. I wouldn't find that as conducive to learning, personally. I'm based in London but go out in Manchester a lot after work and I honestly cant say ive noticed that much difference in prices for food and drink, and that's without student discounts. Rent will be the big expense of course but their is lots of student accommodation in London.

Id say if he lives in Manchester then maybe give London a go. It seems crazy to turn down 'the second best university in the world' when youve been clever enough and diligent enough to get one of the like gold dust offers (yes i know these rankings are mainly based on research l, but still ...)

(Manchester was also highly ranked too out of the UK unis)

And yes i find it hard to believe that a sociable kid in London who likes gigs and partying would struggle to find plenty to do. I went to LSE for a masters and barely remember that year 🙃

Hi OP, ds is at Imperial and just finishing his first year. He's had a fab time. His roommate (a friend before from school) does physics and he seems to have a lot of time for his hobbies (one in particular takes up a lot of time). Physics is actually seen by some of them as an easy course (crazy!).

Ds has plenty of regular small group tutor time (8 in a group). This is really important. I'd say him and his friend from school are very clever (both got 4 x A stars at A level and did EPQs etc). For ds, the course is perfectly manageable and quite fun. He loves the extra challenges in his subjects but has still managed to continue a lot of hobbies, go to a couple of gigs, join several new societies and commit a lot of time to being a writer for the aforementioned Felix (due to be announced as an editor very soon).

London has everything and he does a martial art and plays a particular card game at a club off campus. He doesn't drink and is more motivated about things like sustainability and plant-based-uni initiatives etc.

I was at Imperial yesterday and it was busy with students milling and a camp out on the Palestine issue, with a few students living in tents. Also, every week, there's a food market, which I hear is quite good too.

I couldn't be happier with his experience. Nevertheless, he does tell me there are a few students he knows who don't seem to have hobbies or go out much. I think this depends on personality and also ability to cope with the course.

If you can afford to fund Imperial (the London Living costs) then it's obviously imperial. Manchester is a great university for Physics but obviously Imperial is the better choice. Don't be bogged down by "social experience" imperial is a perfectly great place to make friends.

I would say Imperial is the obvious choice.

There's a world of difference academically between Manchester and Imperial

For Physics & Maths, not so much. Offers for Manchester are highly competitive as it has an excellent reputation. There is also the Brian Cox factor! I don't believe graduates from Oxbridge get the best jobs as ime job success comes from having academic & soft skills. I know many Oxbridge grads who failed to climb the career ladder.

I assume Imperial is 3A stars and Manchester double Astar? Could he select Imperial as first choice and come August maybe the decision is made for him?

London is very, very expensive so funding also has to be a consideration.

I have a DC at Royal College of Music round the corner - the biggest single downside to Imperial must be the accomodation costs. These have increased as a number of former student properties fell foul of the changes in HMO rules brought in by Kensington & Chelsea. This should give you a feel for what flatshares and studios cost. https://www.rightmove.co.uk/student-accommodation/Kensington.html

I know someone doing Physics at Imperial. He's was in halls first year, shares a flat now and has as busy a social life as he wants. Other than the expense, I'm not sure how it's different from other non campus city based unis in terms of the socialising? My DD was put off Bristol as the accommodation was a bus ride away from the building and there didn't seem to be a heart to the uni, but some kids love it there.

DS just finished 2nd year exams at Imperial. It was grueling. He also has a very, very healthy social life that includes friends from other unis.

It is London.

Open what sort of doors? Manchester has consistently been a top uni in terms of being targeted by employers.

Also if we’re going for stats - Imperial has 14 Nobel laureates of whom 4 are for physics, whereas Manchester has 25 Nobel laureates of whom 11 are for Physics. Most recently for graphene in 2010.

I think it comes down to if he wants to live in London. Student life there is different and unless you can afford to help him he'll likely need to work.

And yes, most recruitment is now blind - they just see the grade not the university.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/imperial-college-london-oxbridge-qs-university-rankings-b2556865.html

Imperial has beaten Oxford and Cambridge this year and is second in the world to MIT.

My dc is at Imperial and is really enjoying it. Yes, it's a lot of work but there's still time for clubs, hobbies and a social life!