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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

University attendance/engagement - it sounds pretty dire

128 replies

Suffolker · 04/06/2024 10:15

Did anyone see this article last week in the Guardian?
https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/may/28/i-see-little-point-uk-university-students-on-why-attendance-has-plummeted

It makes for pretty grim reading, and talking to a friend who works at our local university, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration of the current level of attendance and engagement by undergraduates. It sounds very different to how I remember my university days in the 1990s (although I appreciate I’m very much looking through rose-tinted glasses).

I’ve heard from another friend whose daughter is just completing her first year that lots of students are dropping out and are unhappy. Attendance at lectures is very much seen as optional and there is very little by the way of any contact time with staff. Registration codes are apparently shared by WhatsApp so the students can ‘register’ for classes but not actually attend.

It all sounds very isolating, and really makes me question whether all the expense of going (emotional as well as financial) makes it worthwhile. Interested to hear of others’ thoughts and whether it reflects your experience.

‘I see little point’: UK university students on why attendance has plummeted

About half the students who got in touch skip lectures, with many ‘disappointed’ with the experience and others forced to prioritise paid work

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/may/28/i-see-little-point-uk-university-students-on-why-attendance-has-plummeted

OP posts:
igivein · 06/06/2024 18:07

I’m really not being arrogant @LordSnot , maybe being a bit sniffy and answering you in the same tone you used to me.
But what you’re getting (and paying handsomely for no doubt!) goes against all recognised good practice for learning and teaching in HE - where’s the critical engagement, the discussion?

LordSnot · 06/06/2024 18:48

igivein · 06/06/2024 18:07

I’m really not being arrogant @LordSnot , maybe being a bit sniffy and answering you in the same tone you used to me.
But what you’re getting (and paying handsomely for no doubt!) goes against all recognised good practice for learning and teaching in HE - where’s the critical engagement, the discussion?

Edited

You are being very arrogant.

Do you actually want a discussion or are you entrenched in your views about how a degree should be delivered - despite not seeming to know much about modern degrees? Because I'm pretty sure it's the latter and I'm not interested.

igivein · 06/06/2024 19:09

When I say ‘where’s the discussion’ I meant on your course, not on this thread.

And about not seeming to know much about modern degrees, I’ve been a university lecturer for 18 years (well senior lecturer actually, but I don’t want to sound arrogant 😁). I’ve designed and developed several degree courses, and I’m currently the course director of two. Oh and I’ve got a degree and a post grad in post compulsory education - but I’m always looking to learn new things.

So I’ve put my cards on the table, now I think it’s only fair you explain to me what learning you engage with in addition to watching pre-recorded lectures? I’ve asked a few times but you don’t seem to want to tell me

YourPithyLilacSheep · 06/06/2024 19:17

@igivein I have an even longer career & am a professor. I agree with you. I've been involved in setting up distance learning for quite a bit of my career - distance learning needs far more resources than the face to face. And we taught it differently. This is pretty widely accepted, particularly in the face of universities' desires to use distance learning as a way to cut staff & estate costs. I've seen this at several different universities & taught across three countries/HE systems. What you attest to is pretty standard.

It may be that a particular kind of distance learning - just lectures & self-directed reading suits @LordSnot but their experience is - in my extended experience - fairly unusual. Not impossible, but most students like a bit of interaction with each other & their tutors, either in person, or virtually.

LordSnot · 06/06/2024 19:22

igivein I know what you meant. I don't think you're engaging in this disussion in good faith. I don't think you're interested in hearing why I've found distance learning better than in person, or how I show engagement and critical thinking with the material. I think you have an entrenched view that degrees must be delivered on campus with 3D attendance at lectures.

You showed no interest in learning that multiple universities are offering mixed courses - something you didn't know despite it being going on at least 13 years (my first master's was started in 2011) - just commented sneerily that it was "strange." Trying to engage with you is a waste of my time.

Interested in seeing data from YourPithyLilacSheep though.

LordSnot · 06/06/2024 19:27

Not impossible, but most students like a bit of interaction with each other & their tutors, either in person, or virtually.

I've specifically said I have interaction with my lecturers.

Goodness me, this is a perfect example of how reading and watching recordings can be more valuable than "discussion" with people who don't even read what you say and are entrenched in their views. I'll leave you to stroke each others egos from a distance.

igivein · 06/06/2024 19:32

No, I really think you’re misunderstanding me @LordSnot . I don’t have a problem with distance learning, in fact if you read my earlier post I argued that it should attract student finance in the same way as on campus courses, to enable those who prefer it to learn that way.
And I’m really REALLY interested in how your course(s) encourage critical thinking and engagement - that’s why I keep asking you …

igivein · 06/06/2024 19:37

LordSnot · 06/06/2024 19:27

Not impossible, but most students like a bit of interaction with each other & their tutors, either in person, or virtually.

I've specifically said I have interaction with my lecturers.

Goodness me, this is a perfect example of how reading and watching recordings can be more valuable than "discussion" with people who don't even read what you say and are entrenched in their views. I'll leave you to stroke each others egos from a distance.

You said you can email your lecturers, but didn’t say whether you ever do.
You also said they offer video calls but you’ve never needed one.
I must have missed the bit where you specifically said you had interaction with your lecturers.

LondonFox · 06/06/2024 20:07

@Suffolker
Overall it does sound very much as though engagement has taken quite a nosedive in the past few years though, which I think makes for a very different experience and probably not a very happy one for many students.

Students are adults.
They realize that sitting in a crowded room and hanging around eating food is not the best use of their time.
They would attend if that is what makes them "very happy".
Stop patronizing adults that are able to go to war, get drunk, get mortgage, get credit card, drive and get married.
I am really not sure why so many people in the UK are obsessed with infantilising their own children.

Zodfa · 06/06/2024 22:33

It's become very non-PC to suggest there are a lot of people at uni who shouldn't be there. I think things would probably be better if students who don't engage properly were removed from their courses.

catscalledbeanz · 06/06/2024 23:39

I've just finished my first year in a Russell group academic course. As a mature student I've found that

a- with 500 students in the course, attending the 50 minute lecture in person when it's recorded is a waste of my time going. The recording is fine to watch and I do all of the recommended reading plus my own research.

B- the tutorials which are compulsory are rarely attended by most students, and when they are they aren't prepared for it. Can't answer the questions nor explore the subject. The uni bleat that 3 missed tutorials will result in expulsion. It's bollocks. They won't turn away any fee paying student.

C- ill mental health and anxiety are the absolute NORM for the students. Not the exception.

All of this is in my favour in that I am outperforming my peers with ease. However it scares me for the future of the economy and society.

shams05 · 06/06/2024 23:57

Speaking just from my ds and his experience of first year uni, alot of the lectures were pre recorded and available online, most of the content was things he'd learned already in college. It wasn't until the final 3 weeks that he came home to say he'd finally learned something he'd never covered before.
That first year was definitely not worth £9300 the university received from him, many others were probably in the same position.
He's a software engineer student, just finished his second year which has been blighted with train strikes and lecturers cancelling at the last minute.

YourPithyLilacSheep · 07/06/2024 12:23

W

RampantIvy · 07/06/2024 13:30

DD's experience was nothing like your son's @shams05.
Having lockdown interrupt her degree course meant that everything went online, but they still conducted seminars through Teams. The students had to do group work and presentations on Teams as well.

As it was a STEM degree the university were keen to get the students back into the labs because they had to pass the practical element of the course. I remember they had to do 2 covid tests before each lab session.

Suffolker · 07/06/2024 14:01

LondonFox · 06/06/2024 20:07

@Suffolker
Overall it does sound very much as though engagement has taken quite a nosedive in the past few years though, which I think makes for a very different experience and probably not a very happy one for many students.

Students are adults.
They realize that sitting in a crowded room and hanging around eating food is not the best use of their time.
They would attend if that is what makes them "very happy".
Stop patronizing adults that are able to go to war, get drunk, get mortgage, get credit card, drive and get married.
I am really not sure why so many people in the UK are obsessed with infantilising their own children.

Wow, I’m certainly not trying to patronise anyone, just expressing a concern that for some students, their university experience might not be as positive as it would be if they attended a bit more in person. Clearly there are people who are well suited to and have a preference for distance/remote learning, including on this thread, and good for them. I’m not even particularly concerned about results, but the wider university experience. Maybe for young students, a long way from home, stuck in a flat with a random (small) group of strangers who they may or may not gel with. The opportunity to mix and engage with others on your course, who you might have more in common with, as well as staff, must surely help to make the university experience a positive one for many students.

OP posts:
Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese · 07/06/2024 14:58

Good question. I agree that there is something of an issue with attendance, but I think the situation is less bad than the article suggests. In my experience as a lecturer, yes students do adopt more of a selective, instrumental approach to attendance than used to be the case in the days of a smaller cohort of students who were told they must turn up or else, and that they were privileged to be there. But it's easy to focus on the non-attenders rather than the attenders (especially since lecturers often spend a lot of time chasing the non-attenders). In my experience, to give them credit, most students do turn up most of the time, despite the fact that they are indeed often in paid work for more hours than should really be compatible with full time study. I am very proud of what my students achieve despite sometimes very challenging circumstances. Which is important because these discussions can easily become divisive: students and staff should both feel part of a shared learning community and have a common interest in an education system that works better.

But: in these days of a more consumerist model of education (which I regret in many ways), as a lecturer you have to work hard to maintain student attendance: you can't just take it as a given. So yes it does vary from course to course. I would advise speaking to students and staff on open days for the relevant course to get a specific sense, but as a very rough general rule, the more prestigious the university, the less well designed the teaching is and the less monitored attendance is likely to be. That's both because academics in the more prestigious universities are under massive pressure to focus on research grants rather than teaching, and because Russell Group university courses often over-recruit very large numbers of students (because they can, and because the government has created a dog-eat-dog ultra-competitive market in higher education). The figure quoted in the Guardian from 'a prestigious university in southern England' that 'On a good day, attendance is 30%' looks like something has gone wrong with that course: I've never had attendance that low in over two decades of teaching at universities perceived as relatively less prestigious. If as a lecturer you are lucky enough to be teaching a subject that attracts students with a genuine interest in it; you are excited and passionate about your subject; you make an effort to make your subject accessible to students; you work hard to generate a sense of belonging, and earn the respect of your students from your very first sessions; you explicitly tell students why it's important to attend; and there hasn't been some timetabling mess-up: then the good news is that most students will probably continue to turn up most weeks.

Though however good the lecturer is, attendance is never going to be 100%, as inevitably stuff happens outside their or students' control. For example: a student's employer changes their shift time, or there is a family emergency. Also the bar to not turning up has become a bit lower for a number of reasons. Some of them are positive: society post-Covid has evolved a somewhat more understanding approach to illness, physical or mental. Hence more draconian attendance policies are rarer in universities today than they used to be (unlike schools!) as they could be unintentionally discriminatory. Some of the reasons are less positive: it is now considered normal to not turn up the week coursework assignments are due - which many students do, forgetting that this may be detrimental to their learning for less immediate future assessments like the exam.

So good universities have strategies in place for non-attendance. When students don't turn up, and miss more than the occasional session, at more teaching-focused universities, especially ones with fewer students where staff know the students individually, staff are likely to monitor them individually and give them pastoral support and listen to them to find out what is wrong, and direct them to the university's range of specialist sources of support for their difficulties, that can hopefully help students improve their attendance. In this respect and some others, we have become more like sixth-form teachers than we might have expected at the beginning of our academic careers (which may be something to be proud of). Such a level of support may, with the best will in the world, be much harder to do on very large courses at Russell Group universities, with a culture of more traditional expectations of their students and staff, and vast numbers of students. Which is why I would hesitate to recommend such courses to any but the most self-motivated of students. But whatever course you are on, do engage with it as fully as you can in the circumstances you are in: university at its best can be an amazing adventure and the more you put in to your studies, the more you will get out of them. Go for it!

Suffolker · 07/06/2024 15:08

Thank you for such an informative (and positive!) post @Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese . Good to hear that the negative Guardian piece is not necessarily representative. I’m increasingly of the view that RG universities are not always the best choice. I can well believe that prioritising research and publication does not necessarily result in the best teaching and learning experiences.

OP posts:
Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese · 07/06/2024 16:05

Thankyou: pleased to have injected more of a positive note into discussion. I think you are right about the RG, which was a successful marketing brand named after the hotel in London where their vice-chancellors met, rather than an objective measure of anything, least of all of teaching quality. Teaching versus research is always a bit of a balance: all universities need to carry out original research (if they didn't they would just be passing on someone else's rapidly outdated knowledge to students rather than creating new knowledge and sharing it with students) and actually there is lots of good research going on at less prestigious universities. But lecturers there also understand that teaching has got to come first. The biggest differences at the RG are: one, they get more research funding - which ironically doesn't necessarily even mean better research, but it does mean more teaching at the RG is done by casualised and less experienced staff brought in to temporarily replace the teaching of the academics with big grants; and two, because of their perceived brand value, they attract students from, on average, a higher social class background and for the same reason their graduates tend to earn somewhat more over their lifetimes. But that doesn't mean that the content of the experience that they offer students while they are at university is better: you will often find much better student support elsewhere.

RampantIvy · 07/06/2024 17:54

I’m increasingly of the view that RG universities are not always the best choice. I can well believe that prioritising research and publication does not necessarily result in the best teaching and learning experiences.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Students are pretty much left to it judging from DD's experience. Although maybe that is the intention. Students who arrive at these universities with higher average grades maybe need less hand holding?

DD was in a cohort of about 300 and she never got to know any of the teaching staff or build a rapport with any of them. They were very hands off. I realised it wouldn't be the same as school, but I had no idea that the "relationship" between the teaching staff and the students would quite so distant.

DD met her personal tutor just once. He then didn't turn up for the next meeting and had no other contact with her, so she changed tutors and had just one Teams meeting with her. When DD needed a reference for post grad the tutor didn't even know who DD was.

Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese · 07/06/2024 19:30

RampantIvy · 07/06/2024 17:54

I’m increasingly of the view that RG universities are not always the best choice. I can well believe that prioritising research and publication does not necessarily result in the best teaching and learning experiences.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Students are pretty much left to it judging from DD's experience. Although maybe that is the intention. Students who arrive at these universities with higher average grades maybe need less hand holding?

DD was in a cohort of about 300 and she never got to know any of the teaching staff or build a rapport with any of them. They were very hands off. I realised it wouldn't be the same as school, but I had no idea that the "relationship" between the teaching staff and the students would quite so distant.

DD met her personal tutor just once. He then didn't turn up for the next meeting and had no other contact with her, so she changed tutors and had just one Teams meeting with her. When DD needed a reference for post grad the tutor didn't even know who DD was.

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's experience. That's terrible - just poor practice on the part of the university concerned. It wouldn't happen where I work: I know all my personal tutees, they have meetings with me at least once a semester (more in the first year) and I often teach them anyway on modules, so in most cases I know the students well by the time comes for job and postgrad references in their third year. However, that may be harder to do on very large courses. Given the previous comment about the course with 500 students, I think we're spotting a pattern here: cohorts of 300-500 are just too big to build a meaningful human rapport between staff and students, so that sort of size should be something of a red flag when choosing courses, unless there is some really compelling reason otherwise.

Attendance at personal tutor meetings can work both ways though. In my experience, attendance at them is good from nervous first years who want to do the right thing, but then rapidly tails off, so often second and third years ignore email invitations to arrange a personal tutor meeting. This may be because it isn't perceived as a core compulsory part of the course in the way that lectures and seminars are. In some cases that's OK because it means second and third years are getting on fine without support from their personal tutor, but in others it means major problems are being missed. But a good personal tutor, who on a smaller course will probably see them in different contexts outside the personal tutor meeting, should be persistent in trying to keep in touch with their students, and a well designed course will incorporate personal tutor meetings into other course activities as a way to maximise attendance.

RampantIvy · 07/06/2024 21:09

When DD changed her tutor it was DD who initiated a meeting. It was still during semi lockdown so it wasn't face to face. Her first tutor just didn't seem interested in his students at all. The first meeting wasn't even one to one but in a group.

DD had the most interaction with her dissertation tutor with whom she had weekly (Teams) meetings. To be fair he is a doctor and was working in the covid wards so F2F wouldn't have been a good idea.

YourPithyLilacSheep · 07/06/2024 21:38

but as a very rough general rule, the more prestigious the university, the less well designed the teaching is and the less monitored attendance is likely to be

Not true in my department in an RG university (and MN favourite). My department is rarely out of the top 3 of departments in my discipline in multiple league tables. And we’re a top 10 research department. We have major EU grants and all still teach.

I really hate this equation of research university = bad teaching. Do we say that about Oxford or UCL or Cambridge ?

anunlikelyseahorse · 07/06/2024 22:13

I went to an RG uni in the early 90s (I'm pretty sure RG wasn't a term used back then though!). None of my lectures were compulsory, but seminars and tutorials were.
My attendance was pretty much 100% for each year because I loved the subject, but some of my mates weren't quite so enthusiastic!

Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese · 09/06/2024 10:43

YourPithyLilacSheep · 07/06/2024 21:38

but as a very rough general rule, the more prestigious the university, the less well designed the teaching is and the less monitored attendance is likely to be

Not true in my department in an RG university (and MN favourite). My department is rarely out of the top 3 of departments in my discipline in multiple league tables. And we’re a top 10 research department. We have major EU grants and all still teach.

I really hate this equation of research university = bad teaching. Do we say that about Oxford or UCL or Cambridge ?

Well, the reason why I said 'as a very rough general rule' is because I know that rule will not apply to every single university - hence why it's important to visit universities to get a sense of what happens there rather than rely on reputations, which are often very outdated. League tables should be viewed with caution, because they are very variable dependent on methodology. Indeed league tables often include elements that either bear no relation to the quality of undergraduate teaching (e.g. entry tariffs) or may well be inversely correlated to the quality of undergraduate teaching (e.g. research grants - how can it be good for teaching if the academics that applicants think they are going to be studying with are not actually there to teach them because they have teaching buyout and temporarily replaced by someone on a precarious contract?).

I've tried not to mention names, but as you refer to 'Oxford or UCL or Cambridge', it may be worth pointing out that in the one league table that, for all its faults, does at least attempt to measure the quality of undergraduate teaching, the Teaching Excellence Framework, Oxford and Cambridge are rated Gold, as indeed are some post-1992 universities, but UCL is only rated Silver. I suspect that is because Oxbridge small group tutorials are very untypical of the rest of the Russell Group - which have increasingly chased large student numbers in a way that makes it very hard for even the best lecturers to maintain teaching quality.

RampantIvy · 09/06/2024 12:42

How useful is the Teaching Excellence Framework @Whyisthemoonmadeofgreencheese? When DD went to university her university had a gold rating. I now see that it has a bronze student experience rating and a silver student outcomes rating.

Fortunately DD still achieved a first in spite of covid and lack of engagement from teaching staff (RG university).

Interestingly, of the universities that she is looking at for post grad (Vocational healthcare) the less prestigious ones have higher TEF ratings.