DD driving me mad with constantly (not) changing her mind!

[Mynty]

DD nearing the end of 1st year uni, doing maths. She has never known what she wants to do. Every time a door closes to being able to choose something else or whenever she's stressed, she seems to drop into a depression for days/weeks moaning that she's chose the wrong subject and needs to change.

First time she did it, was a week after she put her UCAS in, spent ages researching other options, then decided to stick with maths. 2nd time was when she was stressed about getting assignments submitted in her first term, again spent ages saying she was going to drop out/change course/start again. She even went to some computer science and electrical engineering lectures in Jan/Feb to help her decide, but decided she wouldn't enjoy it any more than doing maths.

And now, yesterday, she had an exam, thinks she's failed (she always thinks she's failed, but never has) and yet again, she's crying on the phone at me for hours, texting me, saying she's going to change to chemistry (she did it at A-level but has never shown any interest in doing it at degree level until now). I know she's only saying chemistry because a housemate of hers is doing it and loves it, but that's him. It was the same with the computer science & electrical engineering - at the time she knew people doing those subjects who were very happy with their choice.

I've told her to take a couple of years out/drop out altogether (doesn't want to), or change if she wants (doesn't know what to). But she always comes back to deciding to stick with maths anyway. I was really sympathetic about it at first, but she's just driving me mad now, and I really don't know what else to say. I think she just suffers from massive "grass is greener" syndrome.

Oh God, predictably, yet again, she's now just texted me to say she's going to stick with maths. So that's 6 hours of my life down the drain, talking to her about other courses/life choices etc.

I've probably got 2 more years of this haven't I?

It’s good she can talk to you. A maths course must be stressful and a bit boring maybe? I can understand your frustration, but think you just have to grin and bear and keep offering solutions but perhaps don’t get too invested until the time comes when something does actually change? Easier said than done x

Does she generally feel anxious? There's various techniques you can suggest she uses to stop panicking. Can you ask her to make a list with you on the phone?
'Stuff she knows'
'Stuff she thinks but doesn't know'
So with the maths test she thinks she failed, but doesn't know yet so that goes on the 'stuff she thinks but doesn't know' list. Just this process will hopefully slow down her thinking of the worst possible scenario.
I'm someone who completely makes decisions through emotion and stress. I think all the time that I should just leave my job, because they ultimately will sack me. It's a mixture of impulsivity, low self esteem and fear of rejection.
Thinking of 'pros and cons' and waiting a day to make any decision really helps me to slow down and think logically. For some reason waking up the next day after the 'fear' always helps. As does not drinking too much and reducing caffeine.

My eldest is exactly like this she qualified as a doctor two years ago but would much rather be….. and is now doing the wrong rotation, can’t chose speciality!!
I honestly find the best thing to do is laugh, say do you remember when you wanted to be… when you suggested… you know you’ll always be looking for something else…. I think I’ll just leave you to it, cos you always make a decent decision in the end! And it’s your life not mine, I’m off unless you have anything non circular to say…..
And guess what? She stops and laughs

I don't think she wants you to offer solutions. Just to listen while she has a bit of a rant. It sounds like venting to you is a big part of helping her to understand her own feelings and process a decision. It obviously works for her!

I would try and take a step back
Once mine were at Uni I definitely did and they all did well

Why do you need to invest so much into it, leave it up to her

As a STEM academic, I think @Beamur us right. DD is largely venting. You are entitled to protect your sanity, gently.

The other thing is that many Maths students thought they knew what they were getting into and find the reality a shock. If they were used to understanding everything easily, they may now be very anxious about pulling together 50-80% of marks (a low 2.2 to a very good First) from partial credit. This has happened frequently amongst my tutees in a Maths adjacent subject also. They do adjust soon

Best wishes to you both

Some great advice from everyone, thank you! I'll definitely try the list idea. And I'm pretty certain her feelings stem from low self-esteem and perfectionism (she can't make a decision because what if it isn't the 'perfect' decision)

I definitely need to emotionally detached from it, which I am most of the time but she spams me with messages, then eventually rings me up crying, and just goes on and on for about 2 hours, maybe I need to cut her off sooner, but she's so upset, it's hard.

She does talk to me about everything, which is good (mostly).

I was probably very similar to your DD at a similar age. My mother protected her sanity using the speakerphone function - what I really needed was a sympathetic vessel to pour my uncertainty into. So she would put me on speakerphone and then just continue her day as usual (of course only if this was possible). She would occasionally make vaguely soothing sounds / there there / that must be really tough, and it met my need perfectly fine.

Now, I think I would get a similar feeling by leaving long voice notes. Could your DD leave you her thoughts in voice notes that you could listen to and respond in a way that works for you? I agree that you need to try to disengage from providing lots of ideas for solutions etc.

Do you tell her that you think she is making the right decision when she does make one?

I always reassure her that she's making the right decision, but I also want to stay impartial because I want it to be her decision, I don't want her to look back and feel like I over-encouraged/forced her to do something she didn't want to do.

I do quite often put her on speaker phone then just carry on with my day.

When I think about it, she made a very active decision to stick with the course in her first term. Every person she asked advice from (lecturers, counsellors, me, friends, other relatives), all told her to jack it in and come home, but she stayed.

It sounds like she is actually quite resilient in some ways with everyone else, but that you are the person who gets all the angst. That must be super tiring.

If it helps, I definitely grew out of it as I went through university and especially once I got into a committed relationship with my now DH as I had him to discuss things with / be a sounding board.

Hopefully she will have done better in this exam than she thinks.

One of the things that was very helpful for me to come to understand in my late teens / early twenties was that it is normal to have some feelings of doubt etc. about big decisions after I’ve made them and that it doesn’t mean that I’ve necessarily made the wrong decision. I thought it was only me that got these feelings of oh my god I’ve done completely the wrong thing and now my life is ruined (even if it was the wrong thing, it didn’t mean my life was then ruined.) If she is surrounded by people at uni who are very sure about what they’re doing and their path ahead, that can make her uncertainty feel even worse.

I was (am) like your daughter. And leaned on parents a lot. As others say, she is likely not looking for solutions and is prob fine with choice most of time but is anxious and overwhelmed. I think key is to detach as much as poss (hard of course!) be kind, make soothing noises, but also gently try to encourage her not to ruminate too much as that is such a negative pattern to get into. Might be worth seeing a therapist for tactics to nip that in bud. But rather than say ‘don’t ruminate’, maybe remind her she’s been here before and it’s all worked out, she made decision for a reason, suggest she can leave thinking about it for a few hours and just take a bath, see friends then can revisit again - once I am in the anxious ruminating spiral, I am essentially in fight or flight and it has been shown you can’t engage the decision making part of brain once in that state. So for me, in that state is never the time to talk about it rationally. So doing things to get out of that state - have a cry, exercise, cold shower, deep breathing will all help. I found it stressful when my dad suggested I quit uni while I was in that state. You could also try and distract with news from home etc. Give yourself credit too - sounds like you are being a fantastic mum! You are her safe space and being able to offload to you is a way for her to manage.

Your daughter sounds like my eldest daughter who also did maths. You have my sympathies. My daughter is amazing and everyone else thinks she is strong, able and confident but I know she can feel stressed and insecure. It was draining at times but I was glad she felt comfortable talking to me. She was very grateful and has constantly thanked me for my support.

To be fair I think maths degrees can be very difficult. My daughter enjoyed it but she had to work hard.

I hate to warn you but I hope your daughter doesn't go on to choose an exam heavy career. My daughter's professional exams were brutal. I felt every moment. She is now fully qualified but threatening to take extra exams. I've told her she is on her own now.

One really good thing is that maths degrees are so useful and well regarded. At least she has kept her options open.

This is her way of coping, but it's not suiting you at all, and I completely get that! Things I would think about and have helped me are things like getting her a therapist/her choosing a therapist so she has somewhere to offload onto and to teach her some coping skills, having your own vent to friends/husband/therapist, saying 'I'm only available for 30 min', practicing detaching yourself through relaxation or meditation, gently pointing out to her she often feels like this and although upsetting, she's made good choices in the past.

I agree with whoever said you just need to listen. This is who your kid is. This is how they're going to approach everything. I've got a sister in a really top job and she spends loads of time crying over the phone to my mum about how much she hates it and wants to change careers, but then miraculously she carries on and gets promoted (and moans again). You just have to live with it and not take it too seriously.

Thank you so much for all this advice - it's interesting to hear that there are plenty of other people with this characteristic.

And I am definitely going to discourage her from doing any exam heavy career.

I did maths as well and am a bit like this. I think that it is because in maths everything is very clear. It is right or wrong. Perfect or a disaster. Yes or no. And real life is not like that. And I do struggle with that fact.

I cannot write #QED at the end of ordering the chicken rather than the pork in a restaurant so how do I know it is the right choice?

@Mumofteenandtween
I did maths as well and am a bit like this. I think that it is because in maths everything is very clear. It is right or wrong. Perfect or a disaster. Yes or no. And real life is not like that. And I do struggle with that fact.

That's a spot on observation. My daughter is so bloody logical sometimes too, it drives me nuts. She once said she has to stop herself from seeing some situations with friends or at work as proofs. On the surface she is great with people so I don't think it's an issue. 🤔

Hmm. A couple of comments on here have reminded me of one of DS's complaints - that I talk "like he is stupid", when actually what I'm doing is trying to not make assumptions, lay out our initial information and then get going with a discussion. Maybe now he's studying maths too he'll begin to understand why I'm like that ... :)