ENGINEERING Degree Apprenticeship job / uni 'fit' ??

[medianewbie]

Dd has just been offered a job. It should lead to a chance to do a Degree Apprenticeship. This might suit her very well. She has a Uni place to accept (or not) next week in a different field (but she's not AT ALL convinced by this idea)

The job is an Engineering one with a Co which makes small bespoke motors
Local, small, friendly place. Dd is Autistic so this might suit her very well.

This is the job spec : Electrical / Electronic Engineering technician

Assist with building & test of motors & generators (esp dynometer)
Design & assemble PCB's
Design & develop tests for R&D.
Program & optimise sample manufacturing machines.
Support & upgrade above re software
Liaise with other Co's re the above

This is the Degree spec:

Y1: Mechanical Engineering principles, Electrical & Electronic principles, Engineering Skills, Engineering Practice, Maths 1,
Y2: as above plus Materials & Manufacture, Control measurement & instrumentation, Engineering Design,
Y3: as above plus Management, Profesional Engineering, Industrial Automation
Y4 (Scottish Hons Degree) as above plus Manufacturing for Systems Engineering, Applied Robotics, Hons project.

If you read this far, thank you!
This would be gamble for Dd. Job will pay £10/hr but no Uni fees or Halls fees.
I understand the Co & Uni will need to liaise but, given tight timescale to decide re other options, can anyone say if it looks a good 'fit' between job & Uni plse?

I know nothing whatsoever about engineering, but two things to look into - firstly has the company ever had anyone do the degree apprenticeship, secondly the apprenticeship provider will need her to demonstrate key understanding, skills and knowledge - is there enough scope in the job description for that? It seems quite limited through my totally ignorant eyes.

Hi @titchy thanks for replying. I think it would be a 1st for the Co, yes.
I worry that the scope isn't wide enough too.

Who is degree orovider? Napier? Is study part day release - one day a week during term time? Check out how full a day in case that's an issue for your DD. There are usually some online/work-based learning on top. I would check how much company supports this. My DCs friends have had varied experiences with degree apprenticeships. However the 2 with poor experience had good outcomes in end (one switched to better firm after year or two)

SAAS will cover fees if in Scotland. What's the working hours deal? DHs department pay full 35 hours per week and give 10 hours study leave per week plus sort work tasks to mirror college/uni where possible and they have a mentor in department. Pay ramps up each year.

@medianewbie

I think you need to look at the structure of engineering training. The Engineering Council has all the info, and I have attached the relevant page.

Without appearing somewhat pedantic, she is not being offered a job as a Technician Engineer. She could become Eng Tech if she completes what is listed on what I’ve attached. She would be hopefully training towards being suitable for a degree. After a degree, she could get a further qualification. The highest level of qualification is accessed by MEng holders.

So you do need to work out if the job provides a suitable foundation for the degree or not. I agree it’s about fit. It’s also about whether the company really has a track record in training young people up to any qualified status. Are they just labelling the job and hoping for the best? I would want to see what the longer term prospects are and who is checking this job has the necessary elements to sit alongside the academic course?

@SandyIrving thank you.
Yes it would be Napier.
Co has no history of supporting Grad App & is very small (fewer than 5 employees, & Head did Eng Degree at Napier too so I think the idea is that she could shadow them & see 'all areas' of a small but expanding engineering Co)
Napier say they require 21 hours employment for this. Plus study day. So there would still be a'free day' (M-F) to study too. Co is offering £10/hr for 15 hours atm so this is 'down the line' unless Dd happy not to be paid for 3rd day (she is) As YP has ASD, Dyslexia & Anxiety & gets easily overwhelmed it might be good (plus they could live at home so all that side taken care of)/ Part time work, 1 day to study, 1 day to do supplementary study. Plus working towards a Degree.

But it seems a bit tenuous too as it's not a big Co with a history of Grad Apps.
(she also currently has a good unconditional offer from Abertay but isn't sure she wants to go / is 'good enough' / ready to leave home & this offer has parachuted in - she was doing a bit of IT work for them & they think she's FAB & have asked her to join them to do Engineering too - to design & build demo models for the engines they sell & sort the IT too -it's a nice family atmosphere & she is really keen but I want her to be able to pursue a Degree in time too)

@TizerorFizz I know nothing about Engineering so 'pendantic' is very helpful!

Yes they are a very small Co with no history of supporting this (though the Head did do his Degree at the Uni that Dd would be attached to so knows the Dept)
I think they have given the nearest job title suitable yes.

Dd would need to let go her current Uni offers (unconditional for Comp Sci which is her other strength) for this which I feel is risky, although there are some issues (see above) with her moving out to Uni this year. I think she should probably accept a place for Comp Sci for Sept, start the job on Monday & see how it goes whilst I do research into how viable an option it really is (as she could, in theory, request to change to the Grad App over the summer hols?)

I know nothing about he engineering side, nor the degree apprenticeship as you describe it - it's nothing like the set up I've seen elsewhere.

But I would definitely accept the uni offer as a back up. Is she waiting on results or is it an unconditional?
I would even go so far as to see whether the uni might let her defer entry for a year - ask after results day. At least she has something of a plan B then.

If she decides the apprenticeship is not working and she doesn't want to do Comp Sci, she can always give back the place and re-apply for something else next year.

Degree apprenticeship could be really good. Hopefully Napier make sure their work partners know what support they need to provide and monitor this.

If the requirement is for 21 paid hours minimum then she should be paid for 21 hours (no free days for employer). I thought most employers pay full time and give time off for study (plus all the benefits other staff get eg pension etc) Make sure they are not taking advantage.

How does she feel about D&M engineering as opposed to other areas of engineering. DH says many of their apprentices haven't done enough homework - apply to loads of apprenticeships in different areas (he works mainly with structural so maybe more of an issue with the maths involved in this).

I'd be inclined to decline the CS uni offer as she sounds not at all keen. If job doesn't work out then she could spend year looking at other courses/ apprenticeships.

My ds was in a similar situation (different subject). He deferred the uni place for a year and started the apprenticeship. Then if he didn’t like the apprenticeship, his uni option was still open.

@medianewbie

Forgot to attach info. The Engineering Council has more info on apprenticeships so I would read that too. So does the Government web site with relevant details for Scotland.

All apprentices are employees and I thought they were full time. So study and work time are paid employment. A huge red flag for me is the breadth of training and whether this company can offer the requirements for the degree let alone professional status. Around 5 employees is just too small. There is unlikely to be sufficient high quality mentoring or supervision. DH has employed many grad engineers over decades and companies have to be approved providers for professional qualifications. So I’d be amazed if this company is. I would make sure I knew who the provider is. The university or someone else. What are the arrangements for quality of work snd breadth of work?

Maybe start the apprenticeship but I would look at the contract very carefully.

Thanks @SandyIrving (would you mind If I Pm'd you? please pm me if so, if not, sorry for bothering you with request)

@TizerorFizz thank you for that attachment. having looked at it, I agree it sounds as though Co too small / limited for the Grad App. Napier seemed keen?

@medianewbie absolutely fine to PM me.

No expert on engineering but DH works in with engineers and his company has offered graduate apprenticeships including engineering for a long time (they sponsored his own degree 35 years ago.

@SandyIrving Does DHs company have 5 employees? I don’t see how an apprentice, especially a degree apprentice, could have the breadth or depth of experience. All training costs are paid, there could be £1000 paid to the company if DD has EHCP and company pays no NI. If they aren’t employing DD full time, there are some questions to answer.

Today the HE debate has revealed only 50% of apprentices complete their apprenticeship. Undoubtedly poor work and training contributes to this. OP really must dig into what’s being offered.

Agree OP and her DD needs to dig into that particular degree apprenticeship. Alarm bells were ringing for me too.

DH works for large organisation and says it takes time for them to be vetted (and to prepare for) a new degree apprenticeship area. I imagine small companies can pool resources if they can't cover work learning for a particular topic. Napier can advise.

I think the uni would be a good source of advice. Can they explain how a tiny company is going to cover the training and, if not, how is it being organised for DD.

I agree with the red flags caught by @SandyIrving , @TizerorFizz and the questions raised by@titchy

If Napier require 21 hrs/wk of work, why is the company only offering 15 hrs of pay? I also understood that the tradition was full time pay which included release time for study. This seems like a part time job disguised as an apprenticeship.

The apprenticeship specs are also very vague. Designing and building PCBs can be done by a bright young teenager. The other tasks are potentially more interesting, but vaguely worded. ‘Design and develop tests for R&D’ could be really interesting, or could be about tweaking a screw - yes, a silly example, but I hope you get my point. These tasks should be more specific

Please do weigh the job specs against the standards posted by @TizerorFizz

I think probably this is an attempt to turn DD’s job into an ‘apprenticeship’. No blame attaches to DD if she makes the most of the opportunities she is given but this one sounds…..mediocre. Not because of ethics but for the reasons everyone has given

I think I may recognise DD and if I do she sounds like potentially a gifted computer scientist. Best wishes to her

Sorry, OP -

I see that 21 hrs/wk is down the line. Can DD confirm the study day is also paid?

I am concerned if she accepts lesser conditions now the promised ones won’t materialise

Like others I thought apprenticeships were 35 pd hrs/wk

Apprentices should be full time employees. It’s just like the old fashioned day release.

Thanks, @TizerorFizz

Sounds like this firm propose to pay for employed time only, perhaps?

Napier should not be calling this an apprenticeship and DD should certainly be paid for her 3rd day of work

@SandyIrving
@TizerorFizz
@poetryandwine

An update. Dd emailed the firm (due to start this week) saying that, after their conversation re Apprenticeship, she had contacted Napier to check if her current Maths quals were sufficient & they are. She said what courses were available & which seemed the best fit asked if the firm if they felt that this was the right area? She got a reply to say: 'Any Apprenticeship would be 'down the line'. Check with Napier & also Heriot Watt'.
So, it seems to me that it is not something that is likely to go anywhere very fast (if at all) & she should not consider it as an alternative to her Uni place offers this year. Whether it is worth doing 15 hrs a week for 8 weeks paid is the Qu as her PIP award is about to be re-considered & this might affect it as she'd have to notify a 'change of circumstances' in a way she wouldn't if she went to Uni.
It would be better if she could volunteer there but that isn't what they want.
(she is just coming to the end of a volunteering place where she was not treated well & it has actually damaged her confidence). Ooof.

@medianewbie I do not think she has been offered an apprenticeship then. It also shows how firms can use the word “apprentice” without following the rules. Only 5 employees would set alarm bells running with me. I really would take the uni place in her circumstances.

Both my DDs volunteered a lot. I agree there can be variations but organisations set up to welcome volunteers usually do it well. My DDs got a lot of personal growth out of it so I would not write it off and DD1 was shortlisted for Volunteer of the Year at one organisation so I would like to think their clients gained too! Even doing work in something not related to her degree is worthwhile for developing interpersonal skills, flexibility and variety. When it comes to employment it is useful to talk about what you have done other than a degree.

Hi, OP -

I agree I would forget about the idea of an apprenticeship.

I have no idea whether volunteering at the firm for 8 hrs would affect DD’s PIP status. And I agree with @TizerorFizz that a well volunteer role can be great all around.

But working an extra 8 hrs/wk for free at a profit making firm feels wrong to me for many reasons. If they value DD as much as they claim, they should pay her accordingly.

Mainly, though, I think that if and when she starts university she is going to want more time than she realises now for her studies.

@poetryandwine yes it would just be a summer job. 15 hrs a week for about 8 weeks. Voluntary is fine it's the paid bit that might affect her PIP that worries me.

She won't be able to work & study if she is away at Uni. No chance at all.

Good that she checked things out. PIP isn't affected by work hours. However other benefits are so if she's getting universal credit etc then worth checking the rules. The 2 days a week paid work for 8 weeks could be good for her. My 3 always said having had a job made it easier to get your next one. One of mine didn't work term time initially and found it easy to pick up summer work (applied early enough).

Is she coming around to CS degree?

@SandyIrving My worry about the p/t job is not re UC (she doesn't claim it, I support her, but she gets quite a high level of PIP & an HMRC 'new starter' form might trigger a reassessment? She's nothing to hide but that is stressful & 'judgements' are pretty random & often unfair, all for around 16 days work over 8 weeks as it now seems unlikely to lead to a proper Apprenticeship) So, I'm loathe to 'upset the apple cart'. Also, she's still going to the previous unpaid 1 day a week place where they've been quite unfair to her. She takes ages to 'transition' so she might just be 'settling in' to new p/t temp job when she'd be leaving for Uni. I do worry that might make it less likely (I just discovered previous 'boss' has told her 'not to bother' with Uni but to keep working for him) Unpaid, natch 😡