Should the current financial plight of some universities make potential students and parents wary?

[mids2019]

More universities are in financial difficulty partially be wise of anticipated falls in foreign student numbers. There are consequent reduction in staff numbers.

Should students worry about course quality due to cut backs or does the decline of struggling universities become a self fulfilling prophecy due to reduced student intake as they more wary of enrolling?

I know hindsight is a fine thing, but did Tony Blair and his advisors predict any of this in their expansion of university take-up scheme?

I am not sure I think it is sensible, @titchy . I do think these institutions likely to swerve the worst of the financial problems in the medium term, but at what cost to the ideal of the university? It is especially frustrating because the sector has largely brought the underlying problems upon itself, albeit they are intertwined with deeply held notions about class in British society.

’The applied branches feed off the theoretical ones over the longer term, so there needs to be a balance or we all lose in the end.’ Brilliant, @PerpetualOptimist Would that more university administrators shared your perspective

Definitely.

An excellent question.

Does the drop in overseas students include those from outside Europe? If so, what is the reason for this?

Over 95% of overseas students come from outside Europe.

In January 2024 figures, that overall number of international students who had paid deposits to UK universities was down by over 50% compared to January 2023.

The market for high-paying graduate jobs has also not been great in the UK in recent years. There has been a 30% decrease in the number of graduate jobs here in the twelve months to August 2023.

Applications to the US, Canada and Australia have increased as these countries have more bouyant economies. The US graduate jobs market has experienced a 30% increase in year-on-year growth during the same period.

Other countries such as Canada will also let overseas mature students bring family with them I believe. Whereas the U.K. immigration policy is stopping this?

So the costs of those modules are spread across more students? Great! Efficiencies of scale.

Distance learning is not more expensive. Building, running and maintaining physical teaching spaces is much more expensive than digital spaces for distance students. It’s also much faster to scale up digital.

Jocelyn that’s interesting, thank you.

DC looking at an academic yet creative subject and so it is of real concern as Creative Arts subjects seem to feature quite often on closure lists. Although appreciate all kinds of subjects are hit. Other than Oxbridge it feels like nowhere is safe for non-STEM? Asking at open days, 'how likely is it that your course will close' isn't going to get any helpful/truthful replies is it? Oxford Brookes built new music buildings and then closed the course.

Apparently Oxford brooks is the most in debt university in the country.

Yes, so I see. But no doubt had they been asked about course closure this time last year lecturers would have pointed at the new shiny construction as proof that the course was safe. They may also have believed it as after all they don't make these decisions.

Apparently Oxford brooks is the most in debt university in the country.

Maybe Headington Hall is cursed………Robert Maxwell and now Oxford Brookes.

How are the Scottish unis faring compared to the English ones financially, given their higher proportion of Scottish students? Is the amount paid by the Scottish government more or less than the £9,250 paid by rUK students?

Every single apprenticeship is training existing staff. Some are hired directly into an apprenticeship programme, some gain an apprenticeship once they've been working for an employer for a while as career development. It's not abusing the system! For example, many NHS staff have gained higher skills and improved the care they give (and furthered their careers) through apprenticeships. It works brilliantly for "non-traditional learners", especially women with caring responsibilities and social mobility.

Many universities require their new academic staff (who already have at least two, and often three, degrees) to undertake an academic apprenticeship - at a lower academic level than the qualifications they already have - rather than simply doing a stand-alone teaching qualification. This is so their compulsory staff development can be paid for by reclaiming some or all of their apprenticeship levy instead of allowing it to be spend on genuine apprenticeships. There will undoubtedly be large businesses using apprenticeship levy-funded programmes to develop their senior managers. These are clearly not the purposes for which an apprenticeship levy should be used by most people's understanding of what an apprenticeship is.

Following.

That makes sense, I did wonder why new lecturers are being pushed to do their teaching qualification as an apprenticeship

I agree.

Polytechnics were sneered at , back in the day , yet our economy and society are crying out for people with these these professional degrees.

It drives me mad when I hear people still sneering at attendance at former polys. I thought we'd moved on.

H.E. needs a revamp . Cutting out lecturers, lectures and tutorials is not the answer.

We should be investing in the cohort that will take over the reins, not hindering them.

Is part of the argument for some of the newer universities was to effectively give working class kids a chance to study academic subjects that they may not have possibly done previously as their A level grades in general were a little poorer?

I am guessing these academic courses are possibly ones under threat. I suppose you may now have students who get maybe Cs and Ds at A level being dissuaded from further academic study as there is a risk associated with these courses at new universities?

Will we eventually have a system where you need threshold A levels to do academic study else you will have to go through a vocational route?

It might not constitute abusing the apprenticeship but it's certainly mis-sold to students, parents and society as a viable alternative to university for 18 year olds.

Genuinely, it’s not. The point about degree apprenticeships is that it’s always led by the employer. If the employer doesn’t create the job and hire the (young) person, the education provider can’t deliver the qualification. Universities can’t force employers to offer jobs/apprenticeships to 18 year olds who are concerned about student debt.

There are a lot of apprenticeship training companies that aren’t universities, you’re not complaining about them apparently…

Universities pay the apprenticeship levy, why shouldn’t they use it for staff training? Don’t people who work for universities deserve career development opportunities?

And you can have all the degrees in the world but not be a very good teacher…

They have always had to undertake “teacher training” when starting as a lecturer. It used to be a six month part time pg cert course. It’s now a year or maybe 2 year apprenticeship course. Maybe it’s better/more in depth….i don’t know. But the pg cert in HE was seen as the gold standard for ages.

This is another excellent question. I don’t know what the answer is likely to be, or should be.

Class, social circumstances and educational attainment are so intertwined in the UK as to make this question a loaded one. In other countries, Germany being an exemplar, children are separated onto different paths at a younger age. However you can be a solid, respectable member of the middle class without a university education. The vocational training can be excellent. And of course society is much less preoccupied with class distinctions.

I am not suggesting this is the right path for the UK. I do think a degree has come to be a signifier of MC membership. Of course many people want that for their DC. I think the fact that it is hard to imagine your DC having a better life, in various senses, without a degree is a big part of the mess.

I think the fact that it is hard to imagine your DC having a better life, in various senses, without a degree is a big part of the mess.

I begged my dc not to go to university. Neither were interested in academic work and dh and I suggested that going abroad and learning another language would be of more use to them in life.
However they wanted to do what their friends were doing, and their one argument that I couldn’t refute was that so many jobs now require a degree and there’s no point applying if you haven’t got one.

Increasing UK productivity – and hence living standards – should be central to government policy.

Capital investment plays an important role in productivity growth, but the UK has less physical capital per worker than the United States and considerably less than France and Germany. The persistent productivity gap whereby the UK lags well behind other western economies is usually ‘explained’ by the fact that other economies have more capital invested per worker and their workers are more skilled.

An important driver of relatively slow UK productivity growth is relatively low levels of investment in research and development. Removing large swathes of the university sector is likely to reduce productivity - and living standards - rather than increase it.