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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Foundation Years

17 replies

JesusWeptLady · 21/04/2024 12:53

So I am guessing not many posters have needed to deal with Foundation years as they're for international students. My kids are from the UK but live in the US and will be applying as internationals.

But if anyone has experience or knowledge of these I'd be grateful for any input. We're looking particularly at Bath for entry into Psychology BSc. and at York for entry into History / Philosophy.

OP posts:
CadyEastman · 21/04/2024 21:18

You're right,I haven't had to deal with them, sorry. Is it an extra yesr?

MarchingFrogs · 21/04/2024 22:02

Not all foundation years are specifically for international students (some are just the 'year 0' of a normal degree, often offered to applicants with lower grades than those required to start at the normal point) but I assume that the ones in question here are the ones designed for applicants from different education systems with exit exams of a lower level than our A levels / IB?
e.g. the offering at Manchester?

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/international/admissions/foundation-courses/

Foundation courses for international students | The University of Manchester

Find out about the foundation courses available to international students to help them start a degree at The University of Manchester.

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/international/admissions/foundation-courses

titchy · 21/04/2024 22:18

What's your query? And will your dc's not qualify for a standard entry year? And why two different subject areas?

JesusWeptLady · 22/04/2024 00:31

@titchy Two kids applying this Sept. They "might" qualify. It rests on the AP exams they take this May in part, though they will take 3 this year and 3 the summer of 2025. I am just trying to explore all possible options. They will each need these exams to be "5" (A grades) for the courses that interest them. If for instance they get "4"s (B's) then we're in a tight spot. It's either go to a less well regarded college / get in by the skin of their teeth / take the foundation year option.

OP posts:
Riva5784 · 22/04/2024 01:38

I know a couple of young people who did foundation years in different engineering subjects at Manchester. Only one of them is an international student. After they finish the foundation year (assuming they pass) they go on to do the same degree course as everyone else. They will end up (assuming they pass) with the same degree qualifications.

What exactly do you want to know?

sashh · 22/04/2024 07:41

Foundation years are not designed for international students, they are a year 0 for people who do not have the correct qualifications for the course they wanted to do.

Or if you have lower grades sometimes.

So if you took science A Levels but you want to study a language.

LIZS · 22/04/2024 08:14

They are not uncommon for UK students who for whatever reason do not have the typical entry grades or subjects. For psychology, for example, a higher level of Maths and statistics is involved than might be achieved at gcse. So FY bridges a gap if maths not taken at A level. Or if a student is returning to study after working for a few years.

titchy · 22/04/2024 09:19

sashh · 22/04/2024 07:41

Foundation years are not designed for international students, they are a year 0 for people who do not have the correct qualifications for the course they wanted to do.

Or if you have lower grades sometimes.

So if you took science A Levels but you want to study a language.

There are specific FYs for international students - usually run by a partner (eg the York one is run by IPC, Into is a other big provider), that then guarantees a place on year 1 if the FY is passed. There are of course many Year 0 type courses as well - basically the same thing but aimed at home students.

Comefromaway · 22/04/2024 10:11

International Foundation Years have the same purpose as Integrated Foundation years for UK students, they are designed to prepare someone without the correct qualifications for entry. Some universities (such as York) also offer them to students who don't meet the English language requirements.

My son did a music Foundation year and at his uni it was the same for UK and non UK students. He did it because he was a later starter and hadn't quite reached the instrumental standard required.

My daughter will be doing a Foundation year (as a mature student) because she's had a change of direction. She took arts/humanities A levels but now wants to study a science subject. Again at her university I think both UK and International students take the same course.

I believe the ones at York and Bath are separate courses, run by outside providers but with guaranteed progression as long as you get the correct grades.

Phphion · 22/04/2024 10:46

These international foundation courses can be a bit controversial. The original idea was that they should provide an entry route for bright international students whose prior study did not provide them with the foundations necessary for degree level study in the UK, largely because of the curriculum content, level, language or length of time they spent in education.

However, they increasingly seem to be used as a second chance for any international students who have simply not achieved the necessary entry requirements for any reason and who can pay the fees. Foundation degrees, and in particular ones specifically for international students, are low risk for the universities. They attract international students (and their fees) and often involve minimal or no teaching by actual academics from the university itself but if the students don't meet the required standards during the Foundation year then they can just let them go while keeping the money the students have paid for the year in the hope / expectation that it will get them onto the degree course.

The Bath model essentially involves the students doing the rough equivalent of 3 A Levels in a year, with acceptance onto the degree course being contingent on the students getting grades that are approximately equivalent to the actual A Levels required for normal first year entry. The benefit of the foundation year is the guaranteed entry to the undergraduate degree if you get the necessary grades. If a DC has had a normal educational journey in their home country and has not come out of it with the grades necessary for normal entry, you need to consider whether anything would be different with the extra year, i.e., if they have always got Bs, what makes you believe they will magically get As in this year? Otherwise, you are spending a lot of money on a one year qualification that leads to not much at all and there are surely cheaper ways to retake or add qualifications.

Other models focus more on just doing the degree subject and may be more suitable for people with very specific interests and talents that mean their prior attainment is not indicative of their ability to handle degree level work in that subject.

As with all Foundation degrees / courses (excluding things like Foundation years in subjects like Art which have a somewhat different purpose) the important thing to consider is this: if you couldn't make it once, what makes you believe you will make it with a second chance? There a many reasons why someone might not have made it once; inadequate teaching, changed perspective as you get older or discover more about particular subjects, illness, interrupted education, and so on; but absent any specific thing you can point to as causing the issue, the DC (and the people paying their fees) need to be very honest with themselves about whether they have the academic ability, interest and will to achieve to a level they haven't so far, and to achieve it in a relatively short space of time, on the foundation degree and (if they make it) subsequent undergraduate degree.

Universities are not always as open and honest as they could be about this, because they want students (and in particular they want international students and, in some cases, are willing to engage in quite underhand practices to get them). They let people believe that they are offering these students a wonderful chance, and in some respects they are, but when this chance is contingent on the students achieving something they have hitherto not been able to achieve despite favourable circumstances and thus lack any real evidence that they might ever achieve, there may be more appropriate (and cheaper) courses of action for them.

This would be my concern about this route for your DC where the sticking point appears to be their ability to do well enough in AP exams, as it calls into question their ability to achieve at the necessary level in higher level courses. If they had a bit of a dodgy GPA because they struggled with certain required subjects that were unrelated to their proposed subject of study, that might be a different thing.

poetryandwine · 22/04/2024 10:53

A Foundation Year can be a great thing, OP. In my STEM Faculty we run an FY for international students with a partner and also a general FY for anyone, including international students. Students who make the (same) grade in either are offered Y1 admission. The partnered FY has some bells and whistles and presessional English. For students with good English, our own programme is just as good and a bit less expensive.

I don’t know whether your DC will pay Home or Overseas fees. If the latter I certainly understand why getting those 5’s is desirable. If they are eligible for the Student Loan, Student Finance England will offer it for one yr beyond the length of the degree programme - hence an FY is eligible.

Because Home and many Overseas students have been specialising for two years already in a way that your DC in America have not and because British and American pedagogies are not so similar, I think using an FY as a transition year has much to recommend intrinsically. I hope the financial side is not prohibitive. Then your DC should be fine either way

JesusWeptLady · 22/04/2024 14:16

Thanks everyone, particularly @poetryandwine
To the poster questioning their abilities. They are both straight A students taking the most challenging classes across all subjects and out of their state school class of over 600 kids per year, one ransk #1 and the other #3 in their class academically. They'll likely graduate as valedictorians and have a special "in" with the state universities here as a result.

There is however, a problem with the teaching some subjects at their school. AP Biology for instance has a teacher who has historically failed to cover the syllabus year after year, leaving out 1-3 key "units". The national statistics (not their school statistic, which I don't know) for getting a 5 in AP Bio is something like 14% of all takers then roughly 20-25% get a 4, 3, 2. So it is not that there's an inadequacy in my kids / these students here, just considerable variables stacked against them. Thanks again.

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 22/04/2024 14:57

Hi, again —-

I know it should not be necessary, OP, but can your very able DC work on the missing bits of the curriculum independently?

Ages ago my parents were stationed in America whilst DB was in high school. He and some pals had a keen interest in a subject not taught at their school. They taught themselves and most, possibly all, got 5s on the AP exam. A very bright group with DB also valedictorian, but probably no more so than your DC.

poetryandwine · 22/04/2024 14:59

PS Please don’t think I am excusing that teacher. Most schools compete so heavily on AP statistics that I am surprised this is allowed to continue

JesusWeptLady · 22/04/2024 15:10

@poetryandwine Thanks and yes, absolutely. The kid taking AP Bio has a tutor who has been working with her all year (since we found out about the teacher) who is a current, working Bio professor, so really knows his stuff, knows what's missing in the classroom and is really helping cover the material properly and drill her for the test. Fingers crossed.
Of course the other thing is that US high schools are one year shorter than UK schools, so the pressure is on them both now, which would normally be a GCSE year, to produce strong AP results to get the A level equivalents for UK universities. It actually makes me more determined to encourage them because I think they'll get a much better education back in the UK if they can swing it.

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 22/04/2024 18:47

Yes, OP. The fact that your DC will have had only 12 yrs of schooling is another resson an FY could be useful to them. Although if they get those 5s I wouldn’t worry.

sashh · 24/04/2024 06:51

@Phphion

You seem to not understand what is being asked.

A foundation year is not a foundation degree, they are totally different things.

As for the students not achieving, in this case the US system is so different to the UK systems.

UK students who go to the US for college miss the 101 courses that they have A Levels in. AP classes allow US students to miss the same courses.

The US system is much broader than A Levels and so is not as advanced in the individual subjects.

A US high school diploma is roughly equivalent to GCSEs, AP are roughly equivalent to A Levels.

I did a foundation year as I didn't have level 2 British Sign Language, the course taught BSL to a higher level than most who had level 2, but we also did some sociolinguistics, Deaf history, international sign language and a few other bits and pieces.

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