Switching courses at Cambridge

[shockthemonkey]

Sorry, but I don't feel I can ask this question at the college where my student has an offer!

I remember from my undergrad days that it was fairly straightforward to change courses at Cambridge. A student at my college switched from Econ to Law, for instance. You'd hear of quite a few others in different colleges... I always assumed that you couldn't switch from say MML to NatSci, but recently heard of just such a switch - the daughter of a friend.

I accept my experience is limited, but I have never heard of a request to switch being denied, though I know requests won't be granted if you perform badly in your first year.

One of my charges has an offer for course A, but wants to feel quite sure she can switch to course B at the end of the first year if she isn't loving A. Both courses are within the humanities family and have similar entrance requirements. She has now heard on the grapevine that some colleges are more open to switching than others... she thinks her college might be one of the unreceptive ones.

Yet from my memory it was never really college-specific, it was more a question of making your case and getting approval from your current DoS and your prospective DoS.

So has anyone heard similar, that some Cambridge colleges are less open to switching? It would be useful for my charge to know, as she has a slew of amazing offers in the UK but is most tempted by Cambridge, on the proviso that she can make that change after her Part Is if she wishes.

It may be worth mentioning that her other offers are perfect-fit courses at LSE, UCL, Sciences Po and Edinburgh.

Depends on the switch and capacity for that course. Switching within a faculty is facilitated if possible whereas you can't apply for geography and ask to switch to natural sciences generally (though never assume, always worth asking!) If still at 6th form I doubt that they will consider it until after grades are received

Hmm, I'm not sure AMES to HSPS would be that easy. HSPS is much more competitive entry than AMES - eg. there are 10 applicants per place for HSPS, but maybe 3 per place for AMES. But I couldn't say for sure, obviously.

That's a pretty extreme switch. And a bit convenient on offer stats

To give a more sobering perspective - I was a Cambridge undergrad in the late 00s and was unable to switch courses!

I tried to switch after a couple of weeks to a similar-ish subject and as @foxglovetree said you basically have to go through the admissions process again for that subject - interviews, written test, the works. Looking back, I am really glad I wasn't able to switch as I got a lot out of my subject and the other course wasn't what I thought it was.

Unless the student is adamant she would not like her existing course, I would advise for her to go to Cam and see what it's like. It was an incredible place to study and she may find her feelings change after a year, or she can prep for the interviews for the other course and switch. Wishing her luck!

I guess it depends on why your charge may be considering a swap out to HSPS, for example whether they've now looked in more detail into what the course entails, and maybe has a wider interest in the HSPS aspects vs the language heavy aspects of the course.

My DD applied for AMES a couple of years ago but was rejected post interview. Weirdly it was a high application year that reverted back to normal last year. In her feedback she was told that whilst performance was high, the course may not be aligned to where her interests were (ascertained during the interviews). She wasn't pooled but it was suggested she apply for post grad studies. She is now on a course in a non-UK uni that covers a much wider range of modules, much more akin to the HSPS but with 2 x language study included. She only applied to Middle Eastern based language courses via UCAS so her Cambridge app wasn't tactical.

However my point being, she too caveated her application with the possibility of swapping out to alternative languages or a History based course if the Arabic had proved to be too challenging, based on feedback from previous students she knew on the AMES course.

If your charge had history, politics, sociology etc and less interested in the language part (I don't know what they had opted for, mine had chosen a ME with joint MML), this may be creating the doubt, on top of the pre course learning required during the summer.

I'm hoping it wasn't just a tactical application, but I would be inclined to get a bit more info from them about where the doubts lie, before they contact their college, so they can articulate clearly the motivation for requesting a switch.

Because parents are the clients ie are paying. It's not hard.

I am a former admissions tutor in a highly ranked Russell Group School. I assure you that our team had concerns about applicants whose parents phoned on their behalf, strongly preferred dealing directly with applicants and insofar as human bias inevitably affects one’s actions, prioritised applicant communications. I would bet that Cambridge tutors will have the same reaction, @Ceramiq

AMES to HSPS is far less likely to be permitted than the other way around. If it was guaranteed then it would be an easy route in to one of the most competitive courses Cambridge runs. I would be astonished if this was a guaranteed option.

I have known people in my day, admittedly a while ago, switch at Cambridge to more popular subjects eg drop Arabic to switch to history and drop economics to switch to law. I have also known a few people be turned down.

My advice would be the following - no guarantee, but join any college society for the potential switch subject and build a good relationship with the Director of Studies. Do the same with the current subject and conspicuously work hard and be keen and personable.

IME the colleges will do much more for people who are considered good students. A well articulated reason for wishing to switch expressed after having given it a good go will be more likely to succeed.

I can assure you that academics certainly do not regard parents as their 'paying clients' and that attitude is unlikely to get you very far.

The students are the ones we have a responsibility to educate (as learners, not as 'customers'), and they are also (by the time they arrive) adults who need to take responsibility for their own learning. Part of that is making their own choices about their education - and talking to us themselves if they think they have made the wrong choice.

There are also data protection issues around discussing a student's information (including whether they are going to be allowed to change course) with a third party. And I'm afraid that parents count as third parties, regardless of whether they pay the fees.

Thank you very much again, everyone, and thank you especially @Foxhasbigsocks

Just to clear up a few questions:

Calling universities
I don't ever call universities to ask questions on the student's behalf. What I might sometimes do, if it seems useful, is to call with a general question as a UCAS adviser. However, the intake for AMES is tiny and I knew that a general enquiry about changing from AMES to HSPS, asked of the college that has given the offer, would probably point to the student behind it. My general rule, unless it might harm the student for a query to be linked to them, is to have the student conduct all conversations and correspondence in their own name of course.

Not a tactical application
The student's choice of AMES came from a place of genuine interest - her interests are 50:50 between languages - Spanish, Arabic, Persian - and the political/social sciences. Her offer from LSE, to give you an idea, is Language, Culture and Society, and the UCL/Sciences Po double degree emphasises languages as much as it does social and political sciences. So at LSE and UCL/Sciences Po she had three choices that mixed languages with social/political sciences, and two that fell more into one camp - languages at Cambridge and social/political sciences at Edinburgh.

Why the change of heart?
The reason for her now doubting her choice of AMES, as I mentioned in my OP, is that after filing her application she spoke to a current AMES student who, while not regretting her own choice - she is totally 100% Mandarin-obsessed - does feel that the faculty is not well run and her DoS is not terribly interested in her progress.

Admissions stats
I realise that there is a significant difference in the admissions stats between HSPS and AMES, making the planned switch seem both convenient and unlikely to be approved... but as I also mentioned in my OP I have heard of some surprising switches, notably and very recently from MML to NatSci, which I would never have thought possible. I have heard of a number of switches from AMES to HSPS, at different colleges though, and again, one reason for my question is this idea that my student has somehow arrived at, that some colleges are less receptive to switches than others.

One of the cruxes of my question being, is it really college-specific? I had not heard this theory while an undergrad there myself, however that was ages ago.

Thanks to everyone, really, some very useful insights there!

I hope you don't mind my saying, but it sounds like the convo with only one (unknown person) student at Cambridge is having way too much sway on this.

People like to moan. Its not a reflection on the entirety of the experience.

Your last post makes a lot of sense OP. With regards to the the UCL/Science Po option, I guess she's decided that she would not want the year abroad to further her language studies as years 3 and 4 would be in France? Mine was set on Trinity College Dublin/Columbia dual BA with similar interests/languages, especially re social/political science add on to the dual. She withdrew once she had worked out the value of a year abroad was more important to her than the dual BA itself (and the cost attached).

Your charge's feedback re support, whilst anecdotal, is valid, given that it is such a niche subject area. We have had feedback from 4 past (and still current) students at C with similar feedback, but again, this is anecdotal. in the main, those that have not had a DoS in AMES at their college have struggled the most, though this part is only one aspect of the feedback given to DD. I cannot comment on the college-specific part, though my own observation as a prosepct parent was how different each college was, including pre offer assessment processes.

Your student does have some great options. And right to conduct her due diligence even at this stage, especially if she hasn't firmed yet.

Best of luck to her.

I was at C quite a long time ago and know a fair bit re Oxbridge machinations generally - as others said, some people were allowed to swap (i remember MML to history of art and law to history) but others were absolutely not - I remember a history to English request was turned down much to the indignation of the (rather arrogant) student involved who assumed it was a shoo-in. It was absolutely never a guarantee.

I don't think it's about some colleges being receptive and others aren't, my undrstanding is it's all about individual directors of studies within the college and whether they want you in their supervisions or not and think you'll perform well in exams so they can boast about how many firsts they got last year at high table. The choice is entirely theirs. Having excellent A levels in the appropriate subjects would be a start. Saying you don't enjoy the subject you're doing would not be a valid reason for a swap.

Everyone knows it's easier to get in for certain subjects than others and - whatever this student's reasoning - this would look suspicious to me. Ask the college now and see what they say but tbh before the student has proved themselves academically I doubt the request will be looked on favourably, it may be contingent on getting a certain mark in part one. You might get a definite no, in which case the road ahead is clearer ... or not.

Hmm … I’m mostly here to reminisce - my Cambridge switching experience was 40 years ago so may not pertain now.

I did one year of History (Part 1 A) and realised it wasn’t for me. Went back into the second year and asked my Director of Studies if it would be possible to change to Law. He sent me to the D of S for Law, who asked me some searching questions and allowed the change. I think the crucial thing was that I needed both a Part 1 and Part 2 of Law, so I slotted into Part 1B and carried on from there.

I had a friend who’d completed two years of History before deciding to switch to Law. As the degree required Parts 1 and 2 she still had to read Law for two years, meaning four years of undergraduate study in total. Don’t do that!

Just to add - if I were a Director of Studies I’d look askance at a candidate who wasn’t fully committed to their subject at the time of entry. That would seem like playing the system - maybe getting in on an easier subject then switching to one that’s more difficult to get into. It’s a different thing if you’ve given it your best shot for a year and found you’d made an honest mistake in your choice.

(Obviously by ‘easier’ I mean with less competitive entry requirements.)

A friend of mine when from Engineering to Medicine but she had 100% attendance and got a first not just overall but in everything. They tried to persuade her to stick with it but she really wanted to change and they let her.

I went from Maths to N Science but that was right at the start. I had a huge panic when I realised I wanted to change but they were very supportive and it wasn’t an issue. I swapped before I started.

I swapped after the end of my second year, but my original degree was MML, which was a 4 year course anyway. I basically completed my Part I MML and then started Part 1B Law (the specially-condensed “changeover course”) in what would have been my year abroad. It was great because I got to stay with all my friends from other subjects in our third year, then when all the 3 year people left I had enough friends in the year below to see me out my 4th year. Worked perfectly for me.

My college put up a notice saying that changes of subject requiring a fourth year would only be permitted if you got a 2:1 in Part I. Someone I know went to see the senior tutor and explained that they wanted such a swap but couldn't get a 2:1. The senior tutor realised that they might actually do better in the new subject, and allowed it provided they got a third - they were right, because the student got a 2:1 in the new subject. Like I say - case by case.

I heard someone on the radio who, many years ago, applied for history. They then spent a gap year working with monkeys in Africa, or something of the sort, and came back and asked if they could do natural sciences instead. Absolutely not. But somebody inspired suggested archeology and anthropology as an alternative, which led to a distinguished career in animal behaviour!

Someone mentioned joining relevant societies to strengthen a case for a swap. The other thing that might be useful is that Cambridge students are (unless it's changed) allowed to attend lectures in other subjects, subject to space. Picking one lecture course to follow informally might be a good thing, provided it doesn't affect their progress on the course they're studying.