PSA: G Hinsliff universities article today

[poetryandwine]

In today’s Guardian, in print and online, Gaby Hinsliff has an article on the crisis being faced by UK universities. The title begins

’Universities are in free fall …’

and then the two versions differ slightly.
It currently appears on the front page of the (free) Guardian website.

The reason I thought this worth mentioning is that Hinsliff does an excellent job of briefly explaining the background and showing how the causes have fed on each other, from Brexit to greedy VCs to the interest rates rises to our confused social policy. The overview is very helpful.

The accounting firm PwC have just provided Universities UK with a sobering report on the financial future of the sector.

I was perplexed when a friend of mine, single parent with no way to financially support her son, told me he was applying to do a degree in song writing. His music style is of the head banging heavy metal type. I thought if you were interested in doing that you just did it? He's thinking of London too - he'll come out with loads of debt and a degree which I just don't see as necessary in the field which is already hardly a guaranteed earner. But his mum is pleased as punch that her son will have an actual degree (she's not uneducated herself, having a masters).
I used to work in a school for inner city kids who had committed acts of violence. They were excluded from their regular school so came to us for assessment. They had, in the vast majority, terrible home lives. The fact that we were told our job was to get them on a path to university was ridiculous. These kids barely made it to regular school, and had responsibilities way beyond the average kid - looking after several younger siblings, earning money to help pay rent. What they needed were skills to do a job that had earning and growth potential. There was support for teenage parents, support for homeless kids - but all geared to keep them in school (til 18), not to help give them practical knowledge to get them in the workforce (beyond minimum wage jobs). It drove me nuts. This was America in the 1990s.
The drive to get a degree without considering whether it's of financial value can be countered by those who have intellectual curiosity and drive to really explore a subject, but I don't think that's the majority. But getting a degree tends to be at the same time one transitions to adulthood, and perhaps university is acting as a buffer to help ease that process. I know my son, who has worked from the age of 16 (he did get a vocational qualification) has found the transition much more abrupt and challenging than many of his university going peers who can ease into adulting over three or more years.
One may not need a degree to do a certain job, but it seems faced with two candidates, one with a degree (however irrelevant) and one without, the former wins. My design degree didn't prepare me at all for my actual design job in any real sense, but I wouldn't have gotten it without it.

Yes, Nolan has an English degree as do lots of screenwriters and directors. But they are also older, and often come from connected backgrounds. For someone not form a moneyed background , 3 years of study gains access to that world and builds connections. Also , Nolan is not in production. I do think pure screenwriting and creative writing degrees are a bit unnecessary - better to combine them with English or theoretical media film, otherwise they feel a bit restricted. The master's in CW are very successsful.

Re songwriting. Again, not new. You say monday, that most get on and do it. Sadly, even pop music is becoming a middle class, privileged enclave. The lad does not have the money or connections. A 3 year degree will teach him to reflect on his style, gain expertise, build connections and may prove really useful . There are actually good outcomes from those degrees for people who want to work in the commercial sector (eg writing music for TV) and I imagine the degree is at a specialised institution such as BIMM, or LIPA - he has done well to get a place if so. I don't think many on MN realise how competitive entry is to creative and design degrees . And, whilst focusing on debt, let us not forget that fees etc are paid upfront and someone going into creative industries may never have to pay all of this back. This may make mathematical sense compared to the debts one might build up trying to refine the art themselves and build connections - never mind access to extremely expensive kit!

That's why so many people in film and music are loaded : it's really expensive to self fund it!

Nolan did choose UCL deliberately though - for its filmmaking suite and did lots of filmmaking whilst there. So his degree did facilitate his journey.

His story is actually a really inspiring one of how it can be done - but the university degree is a huge part of it because of the opportunities university facilities offered him.

Yes the more popular supposedly fun like things like music, arts also tend to have more unpaid internships too (to the extent they are allowed to be unpaid these days), whereas something like law (my profession) the 1 or 2 week vacation schemes are paid. Even in law you will get far more young people wanting to go into sports law or something else trendy rather than pensions or oil and gas.

I don't know the solution to university funding. Perhaps if the state allowed parents like I am who fully funded my children without student loans the right to set that against my tax just as my parents could covenant money to me in 1979 to pay my university rent (I just got a tiny tiny minimum grant although had no fees to pay) given how high taxes were in 1979. By 2024 we have the highest tax burden for 70 years in the UK so certainly are going to need to rethink what we spend and how highly we tax people.
I would suggest fewer at university for a start. My mother taught very well after 2 years of teacher training (she DID only teach 6 year olds but was very good at it). The Cert Ed she had is probably enough for most people to teach 6 year olds.
Perhaps we should require all doctors to work in the NHS for 10 years full time once they qualify and then subsidise their degrees more. May be try to go back to my day when only 15% went to university. Not many people in my class at school went to university at all.

I was prepared to fund whatever reasonable course/ career my children chose.It is only by chance 4 of the 5 children are lawyers (2 qualified in January this year). However if they were determined to be a writer or artist or musician I would equally as happily have funded other routes for them. However I would not have funded some pointless no real aim but I want to doss around for a few more years kind of thing.

@Piggywaspushed But there's no 'knitting' degree. It's fashion and textiles, with people choosing knitwear as a medium.
Also you have stated the problem exactly, a degree is the 'only' way to get these things. What did people do before everyone had a degree, in the heyday of British films? Why do they all suddenly need degrees now? It's not just about 'French Film directors' (in fact, like politicians going to Oxbridge it's not clear whether the elite institutions themselves offer anything, or it's just a finishing institution for like minded people) which as you agree is elitist.
But people were doing all these jobs fine before they all had to become degrees.
Even video production for media and marketing etc so many people are self-taught and successful.
And it's a forum, I can offer thoughts on anything I like.
@TizerorFizz exactly. It's not really about what the landscape is like NOW. It's about what it could, or should be.
The problem with our current system as well is that all the burden is on the student and their parents. So many just can't afford to go, if parents have 2-3 kids in uni at the same time and even the minimum maintenance loan is less.

@Piggywaspushed despite what you may think I'm not arguing mainly about what should and shouldn't be a degree. After all, if your course is still running, with people paying to attend (some very fine institutions have closed, like the U of Kent's Centre for Journalism Studies) then you're effectively funding yourself.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/university-confirms-six-courses-to-be-axed-303841/#:~:text=The%20courses%20being%20axed%20are,the%20end%20of%20their%20degrees.

edit also read that they're axing music and audio technology, there you go

But rather, The issue here isn't with specific degree subjects really it's about other routes. Nothing stopping from degrees in everything existing, but what about those who can't go?

'University facilities' are another matter, other learning institutions can also have these facilities and in fact employer funded courses etc might bring in more money than tuition fees.

People can argue all week about what should and shouldn’t be a degree. The sad truth is when a university goes bust it won’t matter what degree the student is doing, they will all be affected, including the engineering, maths, economics, nursing students. And the universities are making a loss on all those subjects. The universities main focus is on not losing money, they don’t particularly care about the “worthiness’ of a degree apart from there been the student outcomes part of league tables.

Not sure when the heyday of British films was that you refer to, so I can't answer that.

At no point gave I said people have to have degrees to get into film or media. But it's a useful iron in the fire, especially for those from less advantaged backgrounds, ironically.

I have lost your thread a little (pun intended) so am genuinely no longer clear on whether this knitwear degree

https://www.ntu.ac.uk/course/art-and-design/ug/ba-hons-fashion-knitwear-design-and-knitted-textiles

is OK or not?

At one point, buffalo you were criticising module contents, then module titles and now knitting is OK if it is part of a textiles or fashion degree, and , therefore, modules.

Demand is clearly there.

The degrees going to the wall tend to be more standard degrees : English, archaeology, anthropology.

I agree, by the way, that anyone can comment on anything in a forum - but it helps if one knows what one is talking about. There is a lot of hot air about degree content, style, delivery and universities in general in MN HE. And that is exaclty why I wouldn't wade in on a discussion about astrophysics or medicine or law or what it's like to study in Bangor.

In 2020, the IFS published a report stating at 13 universities were going to go bankrupt. In 2024 (appreciate that it's only the start) it hasn't happened yet. Personally, I don't know if it will. They might merge with another university, or cut courses/jobs down to the bone. In some of these cuts have been going on for years, even before Covid.
Whether they make a loss depends on the proportion of international students subsidising the home ones. The first 3 are very popular subjects among them and universities like Manchester are very international. Of course as you said dissection by subject makes little sense when calculating the solvency of university as a whole.

Subjects make a huge difference if they don’t attract international students. They are the cash cows. So it definitely matters and they won’t take MFLs or history at less well known unis. So unis do need to tailor their product. Just like every other business does. They are operating a business model and if they cannot cross subsidise, they need to look at making economies. Many people are now lecturers at uni who wouldn’t have got near that job 50 years ago. So we need a rethink on degrees and part time study at below degree level.

I agree with almost all of this, @TizerorFizz

I am just puzzled about the comment that ‘Many people are now lecturers who wouldn’t have got near that job 50 years ago.’ In STEM I think the quality of lecturers has been rising. To gain a permanency at a good university you now need at least one and often two postdoctoral positions, plus perhaps a temporary or assistant lectureship. Only the most driven survive.

I know some who began lectureships 50 years ago without even a PhD, on the say so of the guy who ran the research group. It really was the old boys’ club. The current system is brutal and I think we are losing too many good people, but the quality, much of it imported, is very high

@poetryandwine The sheer numbers of unis has altered the staffing model. It’s now vast. The type of person who taught at a college of HE 40 years ago can now be a professor. Back then they couldn’t. . There weren’t any teaching lots of HE subjects and none in colleges of HE. These are now universities so staffing has changed and the jobs have expanded to include people who aren’t highly academic. Because academia no longer matters as it once did and degree subjects have changed out of all recognition .

Yea I agree @poetryandwine - when I see the CVs of applicants for even entry level posts it is scary - I am not sure I would have been competitive today - and I did have an RCUK fellowship and more than 10 publications behind me at the point I got my first permanent lectureship. It is not just the publications but all the outreach, impact (not a thing when I was PDRA) and citizenship they are expected to do on top of research and teaching.

I agree with @buffetbuffalo and @TizerorFizz that UK universities or English ones, which are all I know) could do a lot more with lifelong learning. Other countries do this very effectively and it builds political support for the university system whilst bringing in some revenue.

How much of the debate around what should be a degree subject, the push to send more to university and the perception that a degree is a means of entry into the MC is based in a historical scarcity mentality, in the fact that having a degree used to make you somewhat elite? Perhaps a country still having a partly hereditary upper house is more focussed towards a scarcity mentality than most? IMO British societal structures make people hungry for what they are missing out on, or determined to preserve the advantages they have - people in the large; there will always be exceptions.

There is much that is good here, and it may be intertwined with those same structures. But I don’t think it necessarily is

Yes, what young researchers, particularly women, put themselves through now is humbling. But I understand that @TizerorFizz is talking about a different group to us

Okay, but I am a bit confused - are we talking about FE colleges or HE?

Only because I did an Access to HE course in a FE college to do a BSc in my early 30s and some of my teachers were absolutely excellent and at least two had PhDs and had experience of STEM research in genetics and environmental science. They are who inspired and encouraged me to do a degree. And now looking back I would not say they were lesser than university lecturers and they prepared me much better for UG study than the 18 year olds on my course - probably a lifestyle choice they made more than anything.

I’ve been to a college of FE and most lecturers I’ve met could not teach in a uni. Access might be different but I’ve been taught by some pretty average people. im
not confusing HE and FE. Do you think someone teaching plumbing could teach in a uni? I doubt if my local FE college ever employed anyone with a PhD! Maybe in the hairdressing suite?

Now we have a vast university sector it’s inevitable some teaching isn’t great. However as we know all degrees are not equal, I don’t think quality of lecturing is equal either.