Maths or civil engineering degree ?

[Thekatzenjammerkid]

DS2 ultimately wants to work in civil engineering. He also loves maths and actually wanted to study it at Uni but now reckons that to become a civil engineer he needs to study engineering at Uni and that a maths degree just wouldn’t be that useful.
Is that the case ?

@Thekatzenjammerkid Yes. He is correct. I don’t know of any conversion courses after a maths degree but he might find one that does possibly structural engineering. I haven’t actually looked.

DH is a former employer of civil engineers. He had a mid sized consultancy. The best route for Civil Engineering is a 4 year MEng degree. You would be spending a lot of time on an maths degree with no benefit. Engineering has very different core and optional modules. The 4 year MEng courses allow faster qualification as a Chartered Engineer and he could look at one that’s Civil and Structural Engineering if he wants more maths. Many universities have great courses so take a look at Sheffield, Bristol and Southampton for info to start with.

I would caution against going with too much maths for engineering because it’s a bit pigeonholing your career into a structural design office. There’s more varied roles available.

The Institution of Civil Engineers web site is useful. They have a tab explaining civil engineering and how to become a civil engineer.

Maths is vital but so is problem solving! It’s a hugely varied job designing infrastructure projects large and small. DH has just semi retired at 70!

@TizerorFizz thanks for that. Really interesting. I’ll show him what you’ve written.
Funnily enough him and a few friends at sixth form have just come second in a competition run by ICE. He really enjoyed the engineering project they did but it’s created a bit of inner conflict as he was set on Maths !

@Thekatzenjammerkid I think the value of engineering is that you can get a finance job or similar with that degree. You cannot the other way round. Engineering suits people who are a bit more creative (others won’t agree) and there is a stronger practical element to using maths. DH never wanted to sit in an office with computer programs all day but others do. He is also FIStructE and FCIHE as well as FICE. These days that’s virtually impossible and grad engineers have to choose their career path! There’s also a lot of work for engineers in environmental engineering. Lots of pathways to explore.

DH and his company were always on the look out for grads with skills to drive the company forward. It’s often overlooked that you actually have to get the work and retain good contacts with clients. You have to work within a budget and on time. For many of his more senior engineers, collaborative working with clients is vital . So personality plays a part too if you want a senior role.

It’s really good he’s done the ICE competition. He’s thinking like an engineer! Back in the day DH was part of a school team that won a prestigious engineering competition so it’s great his school are switched on! DH’s school even did architecture lessons in free periods. He was always an engineer though. There’s plenty of work and our qualifications are recognised abroad. Let me know if he needs any other advice. Getting a couple of days work experience at a civil engineering consultancy never does any harm.

Thanks a lot @TizerorFizz !

Yes I’ve never heard of someone becoming a Civil Engineer with a Maths degree. (Used to be one).

There are probably less straight Maths modules in the degree courses than back in my day but plenty of applied mathematics to keep a mathematician happy.

I'm a civil engineer with a civil engineering BEng. It was a long, difficult and circuitous route, and my BSc was a lot closer to Civil Eng than Maths. It would also have been very expensive if I had had to pay my own fees.

If he wants to be a civil engineer, he should study civil engineering. If he wants to flex his maths muscles, he should do geotechnical and hydrology modules, maybe consider hydrological modelling.

Should read .... "I'm a civil engineer without a civil engineering BEng".

Engineering suits people who are a bit more creative

There's a clue in the name - more obvious in other languages, ingénieur !
(Of course other STEM disciplines can also be very creative but the civil and structural engineers do it at scale!)

Very very helpful Thanks ! I think we were mistakenly thinking it was one of those subjects where you studied something like physics or maths and then did specialised post grad study, kind of like law….😳

There’s lots of maths in a civil engineering degree, I did at least one maths module every semester including in my masters year where the maths got very complex. Plus maths in the structural analysis modules.

Civil engineering is a great degree as it covers so many disciplines, from maths, structural analysis, fluid mechanics, wind engineering to less technical modules on management, law, contracts, field surveying. Plus great employment opportunities including sponsorship and paid work placements.

Definitely aim for an MEng, makes becoming chartered quicker and easier. My degree was only an extra semester for the MEng although I think most, if not all are an extra year now.

@ErrolTheDragon yes. That’s quite right!

@Thekatzenjammerkid Unfortunately schools don’t teach Engineering. They teach maths so can be blinkered regarding engineering careers. It’s unlikely an engineer is teaching at a school. DH was very lucky to have done Engineering A level when it was considered academic back in the 70s. I don’t really think there are conversion courses like law.

MEng is 4 years. The modules are varied. Do look at Sheffield and Southampton - good unis for engineering. Look at the core and options for Civils. You will see it’s very different to maths. It’s quicker and cheaper to do MEng. BEng is now part qualified for Chartered Engineer status. DS would need a MSc to get chartered. This can be good to narrow down a specialism but is more expensive.

Hi, OP -

I am a STEM academic. DF is an engineer, now retired, and DH is a maths professor.

You have loads of good advice above and I agree with most of the actionable aspects. In particular @TizerorFizz is a goldmine of useful information on all things related to CE.

I was moved to write because this is a fascinating dichotomy, and somewhat because (being strongly maths adjacent myself) I want to object gently to the idea that one field or the other is more creative. Maths is wild and exciting, albeit not maths of the school (or perhaps the UG variety, though some of this can get very interesting IMO).

We need more engineers, so good on DS for having this as his career goal. But how deep is his love for maths? If he would strongly prefer to study maths would he be more likely to get a better result with it? This is important. He could orientate his study towards engineering problems if desired. The border between applied maths and engineering is permeable.

Maths graduates get excellent jobs. A few years ago MIT surveyed their new graduates and Maths came out tops in earnings with Computer Science second. (Both around $120,000 pa IIRC, but this was MIT). However there is no obvious career path like engineers or computer scientists have.

I am not trying to persuade DS out of a career in CE. But if there is something else he would prefer to study, and that something can link up to CE, it seems to me worth exploring, and now is the best time to do so. (We need mathematicians, also.)

DS really cannot go wrong between the two fields, unless he ends up studying something that does not suit him.

Yes he'll need a civil engineering degree MEng to become a civil engineer.

There's lots of maths in engineering, don't worry . If he finds he's more theoretically minded he can always do a PhD or specialise in design/research. We aren't all muddy hard hat wearers. Well not all the time.

@poetryandwine In recent times mathematicians have not designed the built infrastructure. They haven’t solved those particular problems. Thats what I was getting at. So mathematicians might be creative at what they end up doing but it’s not civil engineering. For example, certain structural design must be signed off by a Chartered Structural Engineer. Often the designs are creative solutions to problems that face the engineers. A mathematician without being MIStructE couldn’t do this work. Engineers leave uni every year and can be employed in work that requires maths. I think the difference is wanting to see something you have designed built and working efficiently.

Clearly if DS prefers maths, go for maths. If you want to use that skill to enhance our infrastructure, go for engineering. MIT is a total red herring here. I’m assuming DS isn’t heading there. The reason I mentioned the other skills is that this can lead to far better money than beavering away with a computer.

@poetryandwine many thanks ! DS actually asked me to post this question when I mention. Maybe MNs reputation for decent interesting threads has spread to generation Z !

@TizerorFizz I think you have well articulated the special type of creativity associated to CE. It obviously resonates for OP’s DS as the ICE competition seems to have lit a spark in him.

The only reason I mentioned MIT is that it has the only Maths starting salaries I could remember - because they are so high. OP, American salaries are high compared to British but the MIT results are definitely an outlier, reflecting that it’s probably the most famous technical university in the world.

To OP and others -

Having referred to MIT above, I just checked on the following.

Admission is extremely competitive academically. However, MIT practises needs-blind admissions for all students including international students

This means that admissions decisions are made without considering an applicant’s financial position. When a student is admitted, MIT have a formula for assisting with tuition and other expenses, according to family income, with needs-based scholarships, grants and part time student employment.

MIT say that no admitted student is unable to attend for financial reasons. There is a calculator on the admissions website you can use. Remember that after Y3 and Y4 (possibly Y2) MIT students (including international students) can get good summer jobs, also.

I might be wrong but starting salaries for engineers here are not the highest! Working in the non high street banking sector is undoubtedly better. However it depends what you like doing and what career you want. There are great opportunities if you seize them. I think we hear about the highest starting salaries on MN but most are not starting at Goldman Sachs!

I think you are correct, @TizerorFizz

Engineers and others who add value to the economy should be better compensated IMO. As on the Continent

You’ve had some good advice here for your DS. I am a chartered structural engineer, with a MEng in civil engineering, and agree that’s the route he should take if he wants to be an engineer. It is an interesting job, but full disclosure that there is a lot of pressure in the industry, and it can be a very stressful job, especially structures. Engineers are woefully underpaid in this country for their level of education, and the responsibility they have on a daily basis. I know many engineers who’ve gone onto other careers. To succeed you need to be able to handle the pressure, it’s not for everyone.
Maths can be a very lucrative degree. It is unlikely to take him into engineering but may be worth him investigating options a bit more. However, like others have said you can side step into other industries with an engineering degree.
I don’t mean to be negative, just sharing my experience. I would probably still go into engineering if starting over. Best of luck to your son.

@NotMeNoNo Or make money and run a company! DH did his stint at project management for a few years but you can avoid extended site work as your career develops.

A friend of mine told me recently that her nephew was struggling to get a job in civil engineering after his degree.
I also agree that it would be difficult to get into engineering after a Maths degree.
Would your son consider a degree apprenticeship?
There are many companies offering degree apprenticeships in engineering.
Network Rail, JLR, MBDA etc.

@Runemum Be a bit careful with these. Often they go the BEng route and not always at the best uni a dc could get to. Yes, DC will get paid but it will take longer to get chartered and the masters is needed for that. Will the employer support that? Not sure JLR do civil engineering? Or MBDA.

@poetryandwine this discussion about 'creativity' is hilarious. They're both maths based subjects (albeit one more applied). The people who enjoy either will have minds that works somewhat similarly, although with some slight preference towards one of the other. Many think that 'pure' maths is not creative, but it is very elegant.

Neither is there an obvious career path for 'computer scientists', unlike engineers. There are so many roles each requiring different skillsets and areas of expertise. And no standard qualifications. It can be a difficult and confusing field to navigate.

I'm not sure what people are comparing to when they complain that engineering isn't well paid. Finance , 'big law', tech are disproportionately well paid but that doesn't mean that others are low. Here in the North West a chartered engineer can get between 40K -50K (mate who works for a contractor employed by National Rail). That's a decent salary.

I suspect most of those well paid maths graduates go into finance or tech. That's why the earnings are skewed that much. In any case, Maths it seems to me is the 'generic STEM'. A bit like how History is the 'generic humanities'.

@asdasdasdsadad That really is not a decent salary. DH’s consultancy pays more than that in various northern locations. In the SE, working for any consultancy you should get a lot more.Incorporated Engimeers do earn less but it’s a lesser qualification.

Maybe you think being chartered and earning £40,000 is good but it’s not. This is a 4 year degree plus around 3 years (plus, plus) post grad CPD with many requirements to fulfill. You would be earning substantially more in a finance job more or less anywhere. However if the engineer is young, very recently Chartered, £40,000 is ok in an area with cheap housing. For an experienced chartered engineer it’s laughable. There is a shortage of engineers so a good employer will pay well with opportunities for leadership and responsibility. A CEng MIStructE must sign off structural calcs in some instances and it’s vital work.

I am surprised you think there is no creativity in problem solving. I think DH and colleagues have spent a lifetime creatively solving engineering problems for clients. You also presumably think civil engineers just sit in front of computers doing maths. That’s an extremely narrow understanding of what roles are available. Just doing maths as an engineer is not enough to get chartered. DH is continually finding engineers who cannot solve engineering problems because they think maths is everything. It is not. They need to think like an engineer. It is perfectly possible to work away in the office doing the calcs via the computer but if you don’t understand engineering concepts it can produce expensive mistakes. We often think all those engineers making constant amendments to HS2 sitting in temp offices must be like mice on a treadmill!

There is a role to work with clients and communicate designs. These days engineering consultancies have to demonstrate very many skills to get work. Also key is getting the best paying work. DH has made loads of £ by putting right cock ups by others. Especially in structures and environmental engineering. Then you charge a lot! Digging people out of a hole is lucrative.

DHs company wasn’t (isn't) doing huge design contracts. They do work for Network Rail though and earn well from them. So, when thinking about jobs, it’s often wise to look beyond the big names but make sure they have the work available to get chartered quickly. There is no need to sit in an office doing “maths” all day. Structural engineers tend to but engineers don’t have to do this unless they want to. It’s a shame that engineers don’t want to get out on site and see designs transformed into reality. The leadership and communication roles are very important and so is oversight of design.