Dentistry. What if you don't get a place?

[axolotlfloof]

DS1 is interested in Dentistry.
He is doing the right A levels: Bio, Chem and Maths, and targeting A grades.
I have been told he should only apply to dentistry (4 choices) and not put another subject as back up, but only 10% of applications will get a place.
If he doesn't get any offers does that mean he has to wait for clearing?
It seems offputtingly competitive and a bit risky.
Anyone been there?
DS is not put off, and I admire his confidence, but he is probably not a A* student, and I can't imagine him in an interview!
I am being supportive, but is it unrealistic/risky?

Won't help with difficulty of entrance to dental school and will have to fill fitness criteria etc as well.

If the forces interests someone better off trying OTC etc in university to see if it's a good fit.

That’s great he’s happy doing his course - I would never have encouraged medicine but my daughter has wanted to be a Dr for so long - it’s tough to get into like dentistry and vet med - then the course is hard too

We didn't push him into applying for Medicine either but he wanted to do it too, then changed his mind.

The good thing about aiming for Medicine is that he got great results in his A'Levels meaning that when he did apply for a different course with his grades in hand he was warmly welcomed

Being involved in training newly graduated dentists many are utterly disheartened because of

a having to work in the NHS (it's very,very rare to go straight into private practice)

b the money . It's nowhere near what people think it is , particularly if you do some NHS dentistry

c the fear of GDC and litigation

when I've done dental careers talks I always think I've done a good job if I've put a few off.

However it is a career for those who like people and are interested in them, people who want to do something with their hands , people who want to make a difference.

It is , importantly, a career for those who are very,very good at managing stress , stressful situations and people. There are a lot of very unhappy dentists pushed into a career by parents , expectations etc who qualify without the resilience and healthy stress coping mechanisms to allow them to have a long and happy career.

Ultimately you will be doing microsurgery on an awake and stressed patient , whilst managing a team around you , plus running a small business. It requires a very wide range of skills but, for the right person is a very fulfilling career in which you are constantly learning . For the wrong person it's a career that can end drastically badly.

My niece applied for dentistry, got two interviews, but subsequently no offers. She got her 5th choice (I think the school told her she had to put down a non dentistry choice). She decided to take a year out and do dental nursing to gain experience. She got into a lovely practice, earned money and gained loads of insight. Next time around her UCAT was higher, she got 4 interviews and 4 offers.

Quote from a doctor I work with,

"We used to tease the dentists at uni but it turns out they were right - better hours, better work life balance, just better."

That's brilliant @Nopoppinginplease

Not to dismiss how hard a medical career can be at times, but dentistry in many respects is actually harder than medicine. The degree is in fact much tougher. Medical students do little more than watch others, whereas dental students are expected to take full responsibility for their patients. The skill required to perform a root canal, or elevate a tooth safely, for instance, is also much higher than that needed to place a catheter.

Doctors who specialise are paid as registrars; to specialise as a dentist you usually pay yourself for a clinical masters which is very costly. Doctors don't have to conduct surgery on live/ awake patients and have a debate about money with everyone.

@catlovingdoctor very fair points.

My quote was from an anaesthetist in ophthalmology so not doing surgery on live patients but part of it.

My sons' school friend just qualified. He did 6 years studying in an EU state for his dentistry and then back to the UK which seems to have worked fine. I think his parent is a dentist. That might an option for someone who does not get a place in the UK perhaps? However I am certainly not an expert on dentistry.

It took my niece 3 goes.....

This is very unadvisable if you wish to work in the UK. There are a very few select EU universities which are approved, otherwise you have to sit the ORE, and there is currently a three year waiting list. There are many people now who studied dentistry in EU countries who are working as hygienists, as it's a much easier pathway.

It also has to be said the failure rates for foreign students on these courses are huge , up to 70% , as they are very demanding courses and although some courses teach in English you still have to master language to treat patients .

It is also very expensive as you are not able to get a student loan and many drop out because of this.

Unfortunately the GDC is shutting the hygiene/therapy entry route for foreign dentists. The government is now saying they will make it easier for foreign dentists to practice in the U.K. without the ORE exam etc. Rather worrying when the pass rate is around 35% for both parts at the moment.

I know someone who went to do dentistry in a private university in Ukraine. She didn't even have A levels, but bought a certificate from an African country to say she did A level equivalents in a school there. This person is not academic at all, she barely scraped through 5 GCSEs. Due to COVID the university went online completely (I think she was in second year) and then the war broke out and they all left. This girl got her degree, despite NEVER having even looked in a person's mouth, let alone doing any treatment. She's waiting for the ORE, and is very happy about the new changes. It's very worrying though, I hope they have some form of training/checking competence levels.

What I know is second hand from my son. The boy's father is a dentist. He is now qualified and working in his father's practice in the UK. It took a long time in Spain and he worked very hard but unless we have been misinformed it has worked out okay in his case. I don't follow any of my sons' friends on line as I give them privacy so I won't look up his online profile. Perhaps had his father not been able to take him on in the practice once qualified the choice of qualifying abroad may not have been a good option.

There are at least five Ukrainian universities that the GDC will not accept qualifications from ,as far as I know. I would think this university may well be one of those .

To OP, from what I’ve heard, offers can come in even after April when students make firm and insurance acceptances. These can release some places. I’ve heard of a friends son who attended a couple of interviews but didn’t get offers by April deadline. They were offered later on.

I agree, dental therapy might be a good alternative. Especially somewhere like Liverpool where the two courses are taught together, then dentists do two further years. I think therapists are given the option of transferring if they do well enough in the exams. (I think this should be the model everywhere!)

My niece did a degree in biomedical sciences then got into dentistry at her second attempt. It was a long slog but she made it.

I thought each uni didn't know your other choices? Though I have no knowledge of dentistry.

@axolotlfloof did your ds1 end up applying for dentistry ?

Hi @Solargem , No.
He wasn't convinced his UCAT score was high enough: not top 10%.
He has applied for Pharmacy and has interviews every week in December.
He was very disappointed, back in September, but seems to have got over it and moved on.
I am sure he will be a great Pharmacist.

I didn't know that pharmacy applications involve interviews. You learn something new every day ! Wishing your ds the best of luck
My most local pharmacist is a lovely approachable guy who's been at the same place for years. He questioned my GP's prescribing (for me) with good cause some years ago. I think the profession isn't given enough credit in the field of medicine.

UCLan has a dental therapy course that could lead on to a graduate dentistry course, which UCLan also run. May be worth looking at as the possible 5th choice.