Double maths A level for Computer science degree?

[OnthePisteAgain]

DS is in his first year of A levels and is currently taking double maths, economics and computer science. They take the maths A level in May and then further maths next year. He is really struggling with the work load of maths and is talking of dropping it and just taking maths. It's affecting his results in economics as well as he just doesn't have enough time to devote to it. CS he is fine with, he is getting A's in all his tests.

However, he is worried that uni's will look more favourably on students who are taking double maths even though a lot of them do not have it listed as a requirement. It is very competitive now and he is thinking he many be at a disadvantage for a good uni. Does anyone have any advice please?

My take on this is that most unis look for 3 good a-levels. The 4th is not essential.

He's best to concentrate on just the 3, in my opinion. Although, is he not too late in the year to drop the Further Maths?

My DC is first year of comp sci at university. He did the exact same a levels as your DC. First year he found the pace of maths v hard. In fact his teacher wanted him to drop further maths. However this spurred my DC on and he did v well in the end with three A stars and an A.

However he did work hard over the summer between yr 12 and yr 13 to basically catch up.

He has noticed though that he is finding the maths component a lot easier this year than many of his friends as he did further maths and they didn't.

Anecdotally, as I now have a yr 11 child who has chosen to do further maths. we are being told that if your school offers further maths and you are wanting to do a STEM subject degree then you should really be doing it. This seems to be down to how competitive those subjects now are at 'good' universities.

TLDR - further maths is hard but presumably he is able and just needs to put the effort in to reap the benefits later.

I work in uni admissions for this very subject (RG) We ask for A Level Maths, but not Further Maths. We would not give preference to applicants studying FMaths over those with 'just' Maths.

The same applies to 4 A levels: during the main part of the cycle, we would not give preference to 4 A levels over three.

Yours is a common query, and I always advise that it's best to maximise grades over 3 A levels, rather than potentially not do so well over 4. Any offer we may make is based on three A levels anyway, and we would take the best 3 grades on A level results day.

@JoanThursday can you explain more about what you mean regarding "the main part of the cycle" please?

At what later stage would the 4th a-level be looked at?

As an alternative would he think about dropping Economics instead? Depending where he's aiming for FM could be advantageous (Imperial for example).

At my daughter's school about 50% of the students dropped further maths after completing the standard maths. The school expected it.

Main cycle is Oct to Jan. Some unis might take a clearing applicant with 4 over one with 3. Unlikely though - if they're in clearing they'll probably be desperate enough to take both!

Itchy is right - the main part of the cycle ends at the end of January and, that point, universities don't necessarily have to treat all applications equally.

However, I meant the main part of the cycle as everything running up to Clearing. During Clearing, we may choose to accept an applicant with 4 A levels over someone with 3. If we end up in clearing we often have to nail a very tight target, and so would look to take the strongest applications.

Interestingly, we often accept students at our standard typical offer rather than those coming in below. These days, Clearing is just as much about applicants who have done better than expected and are shopping around, than those who have missed their grades.

If your son is considering a Comp Sci degree, here is our experience. My son is in his 3rd year of his Comp Sci degree and is predicted a First. He took Maths, Further Maths, Physics and CS at A level but, like your son, he struggled with the workload. He ended up taking the AS level after one year in Further Maths then dropped it to enable him to concentrate on his other 3 A levels. He has, however, found his Further Maths to be invaluable when doing his Comp Sci degree as some of the maths is pretty advanced and he has ended up tutoring some of his mates to help them through the maths element.

If he’s aiming for Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial or UCL, then he should stick with the Further Maths and will definitely be disadvantaged if he doesn’t, because his school offers it, so it will be more or less expected. Warwick certainly also “highly recommends” it. Lots of very good universities won’t be quite so fussy, though.

This is from the Cambridge website for computer science: “A Level Further Mathematics is very strongly encouraged. If unavailable or you’ve recognised its desirability too late, we’d advise you to do as much additional pure maths and decision maths as possible, eg by studying Further Mathematics AS Level, or by using online resources covering advanced material. Good performance in maths competitions can be a positive aspect of an application.”

Very few unis need it but FM will be much more useful to him during a CS degree than economics. If he gets into one of the unis that require Maths A-level then there will be significant maths content and FM will be useful. Could he slow down a bit and sit them both at the end of Y13?

I am a former RG STEM admissions tutor and I think @JoanThursday has given good advice. A very few Schools of CS ask for FM but they make this explicit. More importantly, all of them want A star or A in both Maths and FM.

Any unit of admission giving priority to those with FM should state this in its admissions requirements.

The risk now is that if your DS goes ahead with his Maths AL this year, he may not get the grade he needs, not just at the most elite Schools of CS but at excellent ones that might be a good fit for him. The competition has gotten so brutal that no matter whether resits are formally allowed, I would avoid them if possible (absent mitigating circs).

I think the prudent thing would be to drop FM and sit Maths AL after Y13. Almost the whole of the RG will still be open to DS. Best wishes to him.

Thank you all so much for the advice. He is not looking at UCL, Oxbridge etc but possibly somewhere like Southampton, Bristol, Bath which I know are very popular for CS.

I think he is leaning towards dropping FM. His teacher recommended not taking his A level this year if he's struggling so as he has his mock next week, that should give us an idea.

I don't think he wants to drop economics, he likes it and would like to carry on with it really.

It looks like Bath will lower its expected A-level grades offer if doing four A-levels where one of them is Further Maths and you get at least a B in it, or if doing three A-levels and you get an A in AS further maths, or doing an EPQ of any sort and get an A in that:
https://www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2024/computer-science/bsc-computer-science/#:~:text=AAA%20or%20AA*B%20in%20three%20A,September%202023%20for%202024%20entry.]

If at a state school, it’s amazing how many are on Bristol’s contextual offer list (with no other reason needed for giving a contextual offer), so that’s worth taking into account. If not contextual, you must get an A in maths, so worth dropping further maths if this ensures an A for maths.

I’m not sure if Southampton even specifies maths A-level must be taken.

So, as you can see, it can be very variable. He should maybe look at course specifications and requirements and think about whether the computer science courses he likes the sound of the most give special mention to expectations for maths qualifications.

Grr. That’s supposed to say, Bristol’s normal, non-contextual offer, offer requires an A* in maths A-level.

Friends son is doing exactly the same a levels in yr 2.

Nearly all unis have only offered based on 3 A levels only and they want an A in maths.

So I'd say dropping further maths and getting the A in maths itself is far more likely to get him in.

They aren't interested in further maths as an A level grade unless maths is an A. Most offer A*AA or AAA so he needs to make sure he's not compromising his other 2 grades.

I would drop something else rather than FM.
Dd course at Bath has standard offer A*AA but was wa a offered also AAAB with FM.More importan t ly on a STEM course uou need FM content and it is covered much faster and less spoonfed at university than school.

DS and I looked round Newcastle for CS and I was very impressed with the department. A typical offer is AAB with no maths requirement as they focus on levelling up the students in the first year. If your son wants to drop FM then do look at Newcastle.

Warwick do require it. It specifically says so in their FAQ under course requirements. It also sets out what is expected by way of additional courses if the school doesn't offer FM.

Sorry ^^^ too late to edit. Just realised that's for Warwick Maths not CompSci but ca n see it seems to be going tge same way