Medicine/ Neuroscience/ Biomedicine...

[ColouringPencils]

Just wondering if anyone's DC has had a similar dilemma and how they decided which route to pursue.

DD is interested in Medicine but also things like Neuroscience and Genetics. Obviously we know Medicine is incredibly hard to get on to the degree. But something like Neuroscience, it seems to me (who knows nothing) that it might be easier to get on the course, but then really hard to actually get into as a career.

And if she did want to do Neuroscience over Medicine, would she be better off looking at an undergraduate degree in it, like you can do at various places including Edinburgh and Manchester, or a broader undergraduate degree like Biomedical or even broader like Biological science?

When we went to the Open Day at Manchester a few years ago, (for Neuroscience) they told us that everyone doing any of the (30 odd?) different degrees that come under Biosciences did many Modules that crossed over different courses in the first year. They said this was to give everyone a broad base both because Scientists usually work with other Scientists from different areas, and it was good for all scientists to have some grounding and Understanding of different specialisms, but also because most of the specialisms weren't' subjects that were taught in schools / could be done at A-level, so at the time of application, many students didn't realise just how interested they would turn out to be in specialisms that they hadn't studied before.
I am sure my memory is right when saying around 25% of the students specialised in 2nd year in an area different from the one they applied for.

The complete opposite was Nottingham, where they were "selling" the fact they specialised in Neuroscience from the outset.

I have to say, I much preferred what they were saying at Manchester - it made a LOT of sense to me. So many of the specialisms I had very little idea about, (nor did dc) so the potential for becoming interested in something else once you'd done some Modules made a lot of sense to me.

Medicine is something else again. It is so difficult to get in to, and such a challenging course throughout the 5 (well 7) years, that I think it has to be something you are passionate about wanting to do, so much more than 'something you are considering'.

My dd did Medical Sciences with Neuroscience at Exeter.
The degree was Medical Sciences and then from year two you can follow various pathways if you wish to.

My DD is a would-be neuroscientist. There is definitely a mix between unis where the course jumps straight into neuroscience in Year 1 (eg UCL, Exeter, Bristol) and those that do a broader first year which allows them to switch into other biomedical degrees in Year 2 if they want to (eg Edinburgh, Manchester, Warwick).

DD's preference is for neuroscience straight off the bat as it is very much what she wants to do (she is really into the whole brain thing!), but we looked at a lot of different courses because she wants to be able to take some psychology modules. I think many biomedical sciences courses would include enough neuroscience modules to be able to move into that field, and so would some natural science courses. Neuroscience used to come under NatSci at York (until they scrapped the course this year) and DD looked at both the NatSci course at Lancaster and their joint biology and psychology degree. Either would have given a decent base for neuroscience.

Bear in mind that with biomedical sciences the RG and similar uni courses are research oriented and don't offer Institute of Biomedical Sciences accreditation. IBMS accredited courses are generally offered by the newer unis and are intended to prepare students to work in the NHS. If your DD is looking to go into research then the IBMS thing isn't relevant - a good degree from a highly rated university is more important.

It is also worth looking to see whether a university offers possible research opportunities. UCL is excellent for neuroscience as it is in the centre of a huge research cluster and facilitates internships. Exeter and Bristol both offer neuroscience degrees with placement years and have a fair amount of research going on (Exeter is in the process of expanding its neuroscience department). Edinburgh has I think three different research institutes working on the brain.

How did your DD find it @Snozzlemaid? My DD has an offer from Exeter for their Neuroscience degree and I have heard good things about the medical school there. We are going to an offer holder day and it looks as though it may end up as her insurance choice.

Forget medicine if she isn't absolutely committed to it. It's a tough process and you have to really, really want to do it.

Re neuroscience vs biomedical sciences...I think the best thing would be for your dd to go to open days for both, if you can. It's amazing how much a visit can help to clarify what they actually want/ don't want.

What about doing an intercalated degree (so medicine with a related biology degree during the medicine degree)? She shouldn't do medicine unless she really has a passion for it though.

A biology degree (of any specialisation) is a good degree to have though, don't worry about jobs. PhDs in biology generally accept a 2:1 whereas in many subjects you need a first. The (bio)pharmaceutical industry is growing and there's a skill shortage so there's plenty of jobs for smart graduates or postdocs. A biology degree is a numerate degree that requires essay writing skills, there are lots of transferable skills that can lead to many other jobs.

I'm Scottish and because our degrees are longer we have two general years before specialising, I'd recommend going somewhere that is possible to allow her time to get to know a subject before commiting to it. Also, ask about lab time during the course, the opportunity to do independent research during the degree, the opportunity to do summer work in a lab and the opportunities to do a year in industry. Also, she should think about where she wants to live as well as the course, does she want to be in a big city or somewhere smaller (e.g. Glasgow vs St Andrews have very different vibes).

Thanks everyone for these insights, lots to think about. She was interested in Medicine first, then went towards Neuroscience, then is wavering back to Medicine. As far as I can tell, if she wanted to actually work as a neuroscientist that probably requires a PhD, so no less commitment than Medicine really, just not so much up front. She is also the kind of person who will commit to something for life, so she wants to be sure before she commits.
Does anyone know if there are jobs in neuroscience for the number of graduates? I know with Psychology it is very hard to get a job in that field and the market is saturated with Psychology graduates and this is definitely something that put her off. In fact, I think the appeal of Medicine may be how vocational it is.

She needs to step away from the idea of having one path and sticking to it. Life is a journey and along the way she will experience different fields , meet people , hear talks read books etc. I would say that a course with a broader first year would be ideal. The one in Exeter sounds perfect.

FWIW one of the best undergraduate courses for Biomedical Science can be found at UWE. We were pleasantly surprised at how well planned the course is and the opportunities available. The course leader is the same person who put the course together and there is the opportunity to do a placement year - the uni has great connections with some universities in the USA.

I've met a few scientists who left research to become doctors. They all felt they wanted to be 'actually making the decisions'.

Most of them found when they were working in medicine that the decisions in reality felt quite small and it wasn't what they had imagined.

Personally as a doctor I did a year in a lab and was bored witless as I hated doing the experiments and all the tidying up

The jobs are very different, the key is what she feels about seeing patients.

Bear in mind that with biomedical sciences the RG and similar uni courses are research oriented and don't offer Institute of Biomedical Sciences accreditation. IBMS accredited courses are generally offered by the newer unis and are intended to prepare students to work in the NHS.

An excellent post from @PumpkinKnitter but I really wanted to highlight this section in particular as it precisely sums up DD2's experience. She did biomed at a mid-rank post-92 university and worked in the NHS during her placement year. Her course was accredited so she has all the qualifications needed to apply for NHS positions.

However, she realised that she wanted to do more academic research and she was lucky enough to win a place on a very prestigious Masters course at a world-renowned institution. She's now in a position to forge a research career.

Congratulations to your DD @thing47 - that is an impressive achievement! Good luck to her for her future career.

Does doing the accredited Biomedical course usually rule out a research career? I noticed some universities (maybe Lancaster?) offer both accredited and non-accredited.

Re my DD, yes I think she needs to commit to/rule out Medicine before she thinks of next steps. Re her temperament, I can kind of see her as a doctor more than working in a lab. She is quiet, but still a people person and has always said since she was at primary school that the thing she wanted to do was make people's lives better. Both routes would do that of course, but one is more tangible. She also has characteristics I associate more with doctors like empathy and tenacity. Personally, I feel torn as I know the Medicine route is so hard, both to get into and as a career, and I just want her to be happy. I also have a son who is interested in science and I have no doubt he will opt for what he thinks would be the most interesting job tor the best pay, which is a lot more straightforward!

The major question is whether she wants to be clinical or not. Degrees like biomedical science/neuroscience have no direct clinical/patient facing application whereas medicine definitely does. If she definitely wants to be clinical then has she thought about nursing? Nursing is much much more academic than it used to be and has a much greater component of “helping people” than lab work does, but again it depends on what she wants to do. Psychology is actually a good example. As you said, the market is saturated with psychology grads but we have the most incredible shortage of mental health nurses all of whom do the “therapy, patient facing” thing. It’s really worth researching different careers properly before committing to anything.

No, I don't think she has considered mental health nursing, but that's a good idea. Another one to add to the list!

Being a "neuroscientist" isn't really a job. I assume a career in research in neurology is what she wants to do?

A 2:1 in a biology subject from a good university will be enough to get her past the first barrier of finding a PhD. A course with a year in industry would be preferable and that will make it easier to find a PhD.

If she is interested in neuroscience then by all means choose a course that is neuroscience heavy but the subjects covered don't matter all that much. It is more about learning to critically analyse data and be creative in the way you connect ideas and evidence.

You can do a degree in neuroscience and then go on to research pretty much any area of biological science. There is even opportunities to cross over into chemistry or engineering these days.

Medicine is a totally different kettle of fish. Lots of memorising things and learning to make quick decisions under pressure.

This is good to know re neuroscience @Geneticsbunny. You can tell I know very little about it! But I am relieved it sounds like it would keep a lot of doors open.

Re medicine, she is very good at memorising things and does very well in exams.

Sorry @ColouringPencils my previous post was a bit self-centred and didn't explicitly answer the questions you were asking. The point I wanted to make is that it is perfectly possible to take an under-graduate degree in biomedical science (or other more general course) and then specialise later through post-graduate degree(s). And of course quite a few who choose to study biomed are using it as a backdoor into medicine.

So to that extent it probably doesn't matter all that much whether a biomed course is accredited or not, as further study will be necessary in either case.

My DD's Masters actually had quite a lot of people who were already qualified doctors who were looking to specialise in a specific area of very topical interest.

I agree the jobs are very different. I think with good grades in biology you can be pushed to do medicine because of the prestige whether or not it suits you. I certainly was asked by my school to consider it because I had the grades. I considered it for about 5 minutes then realised I hated the general public and would be much happier working with other swotty people. 30+ years later I still love doing science, although I haven't had to do a lab tidy up for quite some time!

DD decided that she didn't want to work in an NHS lab so she graduated with a biomed degree accredited by the RBS (Royal Biological Society).

She is currently looking at masters degrees that require a degree in biomed or similar subject area to qualify.