When / how to get your child to investigate Universities and potential jobs?

[LondonHOPDad]

Hello

Our eldest is in Y8 (so quite a way to go!) but will have to choose GCSE subjects in April, which he has been researching and there will be meetings with teachers etc to help.

This got me looking backwards from Universities back down to A-Levels for various degrees to see what subjects being dropped affect anything. I've looked through tons of threads on here, many of which also reference jobs post University courses etc (eg History potentially leading to Law / Civil Service etc which I didn't know).

Anyway, I don't have a degree so no experience there, but am also not familiar with many jobs in reality eg all the different types of engineering, plus things like degree apprenticeships vs traditional degrees.

He's very academically able, at a State school, and has decided he will probably do Maths, History and a MFL for A-Level, and maybe History at Uni. Clearly lots of potential for this to change, just favourite subjects at the moment really.

I'd like to help him explore different jobs to open his mind to various opportunities, and then backwards again to Universities and subject choices at A-Level.

I'm not really sure how to start, and when to start - what did people find worked for them (or more specifically their children)? Are there interesting sites for children to look at that people recommend? Anything people wish they had done, or done earlier? I don't want to bore him, but also want to make sure his eyes are open to various opportunities so he can decide, at the right time, with full information.

Thanks and sorry this was long for a basic question - possibly way to early but I'd like to plan ahead so he has as good a chance as he can in whatever he might want to do.

I wanted to be a pilot at 15 - and I don't even like flying!
It's too young. Sure some kids know from early on they want to be a doctor or firefighter or join the army, others are still trying to figure it out at 30!
Unless he wants to actually become a doctor or scientist, there's quite a lot of flexibility in what degrees A levels can lead to. And many degrees can lead to law. Or teaching, or loads of different things. My cousin did geography and went in to HR, her daughter did film and TV and became a buyer for Tesco, my stepson didn't go to uni and works for the council as head if his department after working for the NHS for years.
He has to do the core GCSEs. Let him get on with that and over the next year or so may get a better idea. Or not. Then he should take A levels he enjoys, that compliment each other and that he will do well in. Then he may have get a better idea. Or not.

I wouldn't worry about it at Y8. Great if he wants to talk to you about different jobs and what he's interested in but I think GCSEs are broad enough that he's still got all options on the table.

This website is good for getting ideas about different degree courses and which A levels you need to do them. https://www.informedchoices.ac.uk/degrees

If it helps, DD is Y11 and she's not 100% sure which A Levels she wants to do or which degree course. She has several things she's keen on but she doesn't need to decide yet.

Thanks @WhereAreWeNow and @mondaytosunday .

To be clear I'm not saying we need to start now, I just don't know when to start, or when he should!

@WhereAreWeNow absolutely, and I think most kids don't know even at University - I just want to make sure nothing is ruled out at A-Level that would mean job x he might like is no longer an option, before he even knows that job existed, if that makes sense.

@mondaytosunday thank you will have a look at the website. Good luck with your DD - I hope she finds some choices she is pleased with.

I am a bit nevous as I made a bad choice at GCSE which restricted (well stopped) something I wanted to do before I realsied so a little over-paranoid perhaps. Google does make things easier these days though.

Thank you both.

If your child is keen on studying at least one MFL for A level I would encourage them to do two languages at GCSE. They will probably have five subjects that are compulsory - maths, English lit, English Lang and double science. If they are good at English and like humanities I'd encourage them to do Geography and History. This would make 9 subjects which is enough unless they want to do a practical subject eg Music in which case you could see if the school allows them to do 10. If they don't like practical subjects you could see if triple science is an option but you don't have to do triple science to study science subjects to A level and beyond. My DCs did ten subjects to do the second language but it was too much really. 9 would have been better. Only worth doing 10 to keep more options open to choose from for A level. I think year 8 is too early for your DC to worry about A level subjects.

I understand the worry. I certainly have a few "what ifs" about the different career paths I could have followed if I'd chosen different subjects.
There are different schools of thought about choosing the 'right' subjects. DP is very focused on employability whereas I think the important thing is to follow your interests/passions.
I think as long as your DS is picking subjects he enjoys, he'll find the right educational path.
I also think there's a lot of pressure on kids. It's so hard to make these decisions that might alter the course of your whole life. I've tried to take that pressure off DD a bit by telling her about all the people I know who've changed course and retrained.
Good luck!

I did history and law and ended up an ops director for a pub company. Let him do what enjoys. It will fall into place.

Sadly lots of schools don't allow 2 MFL GCSEs @biarritz
My DD wanted to do 2 languages but none of the schools round here offered it. She had to pick one. It's a shame. I did 2 languages and continued to degree level and absolutely loved it.

@WhereAreWeNow I also studied an MFL to degree level and it is really sad how language opportunities have declined in schools. As a result the numbers going on to A level are declining. My DC had to study their second language in an after school class but at least they had that option.

GD is 12 and has already been investigating her chosen career and the uni requirements but I think the school have been talking to them about GCSE options. I think children should study what they enjoy, especially if they don’t know what career they want. Both DC studied Geography - one ended up at 40 as a Primary School teacher and the other is Head of Communications for a charity. BiL read Law and became a world renowned academic in the field of media studies. I could cite other examples ……..

I started talking careers with DD from a young age, go to science festival, enrolling in workshops where she gets to talk to employers whilst doing activities she enjoys, visiting places on open days, toured the local nuclear plant as she's interested in energy engineering.

Also talked about uni from a young age she knows if she chooses a different path thats fine and is aware of other options but I got her a couple of prospectuses for unis that run courses she might be interested in, we stayed in uni halls in Edinburgh whilst visiting the city one summer, visit the art gallery and use the sports facilities at the local uni and wander around the grounds. Going to Cambridge in May so will fit in some time wandering round the colleges and museums.

Whilst I went to uni I really knew nothing about it and neither did my parents and it's certainly not something that was ever mentioned as an option at home not through my parents being unsupportive, but they barely finished secondary with any qualifications. So my goal is not to shoehorn her in one particular direction but to expose her to as many avenues as possible to help her make her decision. Activities are often listed via Eventbrite.

DD isn't interested in joining cadets but I was one when a teen and that was great for exploring lots of different careers I hadn't heard of, some military specific but plenty that had a lot of cross over.

Working backwards from potential degree > A Level > GCSE choices is a good idea, in many cases it won't make a difference but for some courses it does. DD has done this, she knows she needs to do A Level maths to head in the direction she wants to go in and she's looked at the local sixth form prospectus and knows she needs at least a 7 to get in so it keeps her motivated, she chooses her options later this year and knows exactly what she wants and needs to choose.

OP, you may know this already, but something that comes as a shock to some families is that (in England at least) the student loans system is predicated on the assumption that in most cases parents will make a substantial financial contribution towards their child's day to day living costs while at university. So one thing I would suggest you do if at all possible is plan to be in a position to provide substantial financial support for your DC while they are at university. (NB If you happen to live in Wales, this may be less crucial as the Welsh student finance system is a lot more generous. )

Early engagement with researching and thinking about future potential paths is absolutely not essential but can be helpful - not only to avoid the unwitting closure of a career door but also to allow elapse time to meander and change your mind without undue pressure.

I encourages mine, from Y9, to attend in-person and virtual career fairs (eg What Next?). The Prospects.ac.uk website is a good resource and has a helpful report showing career outcomes by subject area (link below).

Early engagement fostered a sense of personal responsibility in my DC when thinking about future steps, in particular applying for paid retail work so they got experience of the practical side of working and signing up for uni and career insight programmes in Y10-12 to develop a more finessed understanding of what different pathways actually entail - these programmes helped rule out many things (which is just as important as ruling things in).

As others say, your DS is unlikely to close doors by selecting or not selecting certain GCSE options. It is poor performance at GCSE that can block entry to certain subjects and/or colleges at A level, so focusing GCSE choices on what they enjoy, and are likely to do well at, is important.

luminate.prospects.ac.uk/what-do-graduates-do

Many - maybe even most - students don't start researching universities until year 12. When I was interviewing and enrolling students into sixth form (so when they were in Year 11) I'd say most had a few ideas about jobs and uni courses, but only a minority really had a clear plan at that stage. The advice we gave was always choose the subjects you most enjoy and are best at.That applies at GCSE too, although you don't really have that much choice. Every sixth form I've worked in has devoted the majority of tutor time throughout Year 12 to researching universities and courses and careers.
When my daughter started to think she might do History at uni, I made sure we did lots of activities to feed that interest, from watching documentaries together to visiting museums and historic buildings. It was fun. She's currently studying History at her first choice university, which she only discovered in the autumn term of Year 13.

Thank you everyone for your posts, all really helpful.

@biarritz that's interesting re the languages. He's doing 2 now (French and Spanish) and does have the option to do both at GCSE. He pretty firmly wants to focus on one though as he said he finds it confusing at times doing both. He has said he might put one MFL as his reserve choice though.

He has to do all the normal options Eng x2, Maths, Sciences, Humanity, RE, MFL + 2 options. so that's 10, or 11 if he does triple science, which they have said he should but we decide end of Y10. HE wants to do Drama though which I think is a good choice, and Classical Civilisations as he loves history, which means Geography and one MFL will take the hit as such (still have 2 months to decide though). He's not enjoying geography though still doing well, he said not sure if it's the topics or the teaching, as he like it last year. History he loves though, his only concern is doing Classic Civilisations with it but we'll discuss with school - if we do 'what he enjoys', I suspect these will be his picks as we stand.

@WhereAreWeNow thanks again. I'm hoping by starting early they can form (or start to form ideas) in a less pressurised situation, but also to discover as you say if you do degree X it can still lead to career Y, or you can fully change.

@Lesina thank you. I will do that, though want him to also understand certain paths are more or less likely to lead to certain roles so he can make as fully informed decision as possible when the time comes.

@Rocknrollstar thanks, studying what you enjoy certainly seems to be the prevailiing thought generally. I do think some guidance can help them though.

@Singleandproud Thanks - staying in Halls over the summer is a great idea!

So my goal is not to shoehorn her in one particular direction but to expose her to as many avenues as possible to help her make her decision. this is exactly what I'd like to do - you've phrased it perfectly.

I'll start looking for workshops - the school sent something out this week about a UCAS fair and also apprenticeship week, said aimed mainly at Y12/13 and maybe 11 but got me thinking if it helped going to these things earlier.

@MadridMadridMadrid that's great advice thank you. We're in London so potential to stay at home I guess (which would save a lot of course) but I guess living in halls and meeting new people is one of the great things for many.

@PerpetualOptimist Thank you.

not only to avoid the unwitting closure of a career door but also to allow elapse time to meander and change your mind without undue pressure this absolutely, being able to form some ideas over time instead of just at A-Level picking time is what I am hoping for.

I don't think anything really being closed off for GCSEs as you say (bar geography really). He is pretty focused and engaged academically right now, but I think it always help to have a goal and keep understanding why it's useful to get as good grades a you can etc and what thsoe can lead to.

Thanks @Ceit - I think this is fine but GCSEs generally (and definitely seems to be the general opinion), but makes me nervous for A-Levels as combinations / subject choices will potentially limit what you can do at University (from what I have read so far) . I'd be more hesitant so simply do what they enjoy at A-Level, certainly without him understanding the implications and which courses and universities he might be ruling out by just choosing subjects he liked, if that makes sense.

Can fully understand how people change their minds though, and very happy your daughter found a course and University she likes, and got a place! Well done her!

My youngest dd was adamant she was doing computing! Was doing maths, Spanish and computing A levels…. then on the day of GCSE results she took Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Physics!! She’s now a pharmacist!!
my other dds took a mix of subjects, and my son is doing A levels now and hasn’t got a clue what to do next, hasn’t applied for anything and is going to take a year out. Even though he’s been to loads of uni open days alone, and following his sister’s about !! You’d think having seen all sorts of courses with three older siblings at uni he’d know, but no…. Not a scoobie
They are what they are, let them find their way, just expose them to as much as you can

@LondonHOPDad We did something similar, from late primary we pointed out that we don't live with our parents and so later in life they needed jobs that would support them not only living in their own home but hopefully living well. Ds2 is now in year 13 but back when Ds1 was in year 8 his mate's sister had a job earning £800 a month which to an 11 year old is huge but she lived at home with no bills.

What we did was took examples of jobs they could understand, teacher, dentist, supermarket worker, pilot, flight crew, bank worker, council gardening services that mow the grass verges, people they have come into contact with. We looked up their average salaries and then a what could I borrow mortgage calculator, went onto Rightmove in our area and looked at what they could buy. We did it as a summer project. Then we asked them what bills they thought we paid, some are obvious like food, phones, some are not like council tax, house insurance, car service. On MN there are money threads where people break down their earnings and what they spend, we showed them things like that. I also showed them videos on youtube like How It's Made, you see the factory workers but also someone designed that machine, the machine parts are made by another factory, it is good for them to see repetitive jobs or ones that have variety daily.

We explained some jobs you do for love, some jobs you do for money and hopefully you find a job you love that pays very well. I was a sahm so loved my job but no pay, Dh earns well and loves his job.

In the most basic terms, do GCSEs you enjoy and hopefully you are good at or can get good at, the higher the grades the better the transition to A level, this is the 2017 progression table, the next one is 2018-2020 so over the covid years so the 2017 one is probably better.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/560531-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2017.pdf

The higher the A level grades the more doors are open in terms of universities and the courses. For Ds1 he had 4 A star predictions so nothing was closed to him, Ds2 is the same. Entry grades for uni are the lowest grades the uni will take applicants in on so if the entry is AAA then the top picks are those with 3 A stars and above. A very small percentage take 4 A levels and remember it is not a level playing field because some parents are spending tens of thousands on their child's education. There are Freedom Of Information requests that show the number taken in on AAA are low compared to those predicted higher grades.

And for you as a parent looking ahead about funding uni, tuition fees are automatically funded if you don't intend to pay for them (most don't) however the maintenance loan (food, accommodation) is based on household income. This shows the breakdown of what the government expects parents to pay https://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/maintenance-loans.html but universities also detail the cost of their accommodation on their websites. The best and clearest and easiest to see the cheapest to the most expensive is Warwick's website. You will need some smelling salts for the cost. First year halls are always really expensive, years 2 and 3 they can house share for much less.

@LondonHOPDad one of the reasons I build visiting uni grounds and using their sports facilities or visiting on campus art galleries and staying in Halls in the summer instead of a Premier Inn or similar is to make sure my DD knows she fits in. We live in a economically deprived area where it would be easy for her to think that University wasn't an option for her, same as going to the theatre and out to a nice restaurant.

I know when I take my mum out for a nice meal or a theatre trip she feels out of place like it's not for her and.I don't want my DD to feel like that about anything if I can help it and naturally with those activities comes exposure to careers.

There are outreach residential programmes in engineering and similar that are based at university's from year 9 (I can't remember the organisations name right now) as well as events run directly by outreach university teams.

My DS just took it stage by stage. He knew early on that he probably wanted to study a STEM subject at university so took triple science GCSE and Further Maths GCSE.
Chose A levels in Y11 with a clear idea of what he wanted to study at University.
At university began to investigate various career options, via internships and summer placements.
By the beginning of 3rd year was clear what he wanted to start applying for. At Y8 he variously thought about almost everything from being an orthodontist to a particle physicist 😀. For him, deciding what he wanted to study at University came before any decision about career.

Ours all started as soon as they got into 6th form (with uni visits straight after GCSE exam - albeit online for the one looking during lockdown). We also planned lots of mini breaks after GCSEs that coincidentally had a university near by (at least that’s what we told them!). It meant they had plenty of time to consider different subjects, visit and talk about courses with universities without missing to many A level study days .

It was enormously helpful also when the eldest went through clearing as he ended up at a uni he did not have on his UCAS choices but had visited at an open day and on course he had considered seriously. He originally discounted because he decided the university was too far away. But hey ho ended up there and we just saw less of him! He loved it btw and it set him up for the successful career he has now.

Year 10 onwards. More seriously from year 11. Looking at the top unis and what the grade requirements were and how he should work to get in.

I decided to be a lawyer at 14 (which I still am). We had a careers session alone with an outside lady at school and I still have the paper where she wrote down various jobs which also included librarian and teacher which I did not really find so interesting. I then did English lit and history and German A levels quite a good mixture for law as there is a lot of writing, reading, essay writing in a sense that you have in those A levels. I then did an LLB as I did not want to waste an extra year doing a law conversion afterwards. (4 of my 5 children are lawyers).

If the boy is choosing GCSEs currently i think the traditional core subjects are worth keeping up
English lit, English lang, maths, history, geography, 2 or 3 sciences and a foreign language ( did French and German but my children did one or the other of those) and then add on one more for fun eg music.

Very little is completely ruled out following Alevels, it might take longer be a more curvy route but there are lots of alternative paths.

Choose a broad base of GCSEs and let him see what he is interested in.

Sorry for the belated response.

@Maybeicanhelpyou thank you - yes they are all different!

@boxofair thank you, great idea about jobs and mortgages - might look for outside London though or they might despair straight away! Your post is really great - thank you also for the tables and info on tuition fees.

@Singleandproud - sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with your DD - thank you again. I've discussed the Halls stays with my wife and we will do this over the next few years.

@beeswain my son's decided History degree is the way to go but very conscious this can change! I think they have to work it out somehow and will all do it in different ways - just need to work out how best to help them whilst they do.

@Dancingdreamer Well done to your eldest - must have been a big decision, glad it worked out! Trips to University towns sounds good - thank you.

@millie1341 thank you - definitely part of the plan!

@Xenia All the core subjects will stay, bar geography I think as I think he will choose (as we stand prior to meetings with teachers etc) Drama and Classicial Civilisation as options over Geography and 2 MFL (he will do 1 MFL), so most things should be open for A-Level and University. They have said they want him to do triple science but am not sure as he is not interested at present, but doesn't choose for another 2 years I think at the end of Y10.

@OhBeAFineGuyKissMe I think a few things are ruled out, I guess especially the sciences where 2 or 3 sciences are required, but otherwise his planned (still very early stages of course) of Maths, History and a MFL should leave things fairly open if he sticks with those.

Just to answer the sciences are ruled out - not necessarily. There are loads of universities that offer foundation years for students who don’t do the ‘right’ Alevels. I was looking for a student recently who did all humanities and then wanted to do a swear into mechanical engineering. Took an extra year at uni but it was possible.

So yes, it is not as easy, the door is stiffer, but it isn’t fully closed and locked.