IB (UK) - was it the right choice for DC to get to Uni or did it make it more difficult

[2morasmum]

My DC'a school has only IB as an option and we always thought it was a good idea to keep the option of international universities open. However, we understand that more children are leaving the school to do A-levels than ever before.
I would like to ask parents of IB students to share their thoughts about the effect of applying to Uni coming from an Uk school school with IB.

No crowing here, I said IB is better for MY dd not better overall or though I do prefer a broader education.

You sound a bit chippy tbh. Anyway OP I don’t want to make the thread about me so ducking out now. Thanks to pp for NL info.

Well we maybe do need to address who can do it? Is it the preserve of the middle classes? I think lots would like a broad education but cannot get it. Thats not chippy! It’s a fairly reasonable position but many state schools could never afford the IB or have enough dc to make it work.

An excellent point. IB incorporates this into the pedagogy however

I am really not stalking @TizerorFizz but the class based divide around IB rings true to me. I said upthread that I think it is better preparation for uni, but right now the conversion to A level grades is skewed so it is tougher. I understand that IB can be seen as too risky. Sadly that is sensible. I am afraid it is also seen as too posh, perpetuating the class divide.

The only uni degree programme I am not sure of is Maths itself, in places where most have FM. IB HL Maths has a more creative approach with more emphasis on problem solving skills, but less actual content. On The Student Room opinion is divided about whether the approach makes it possible to catch up at uni for what you have missed at school. (As I said upthread, in my Maths heavy subject where most have FM, our IB students were slightly more successful in a recent review)

Sorry, it was an internal study for my School. There was never any intent to publish it. The results were not hugely striking but did rebut the concern that lack if FM content was a concern for our IB students.

@poetryandwine More than happy to have a debate. It’s what MN is for.

As we know, some unis are trying to widen access. This won’t be via IB. It can’t be. Often unis give a band for IB scores though don’t they? Say 36-38? I’m not sure the IB DC are really discriminated against as is being claimed.

I was convinced DD1 would have suited IB but she wanted two MFLs at A level and I’m not sure IB was best for that. Her GCSE results suggested she was a strong all rounder but she had preferences. I do think IB students can “catch up” with the maths as you say. The ones with higher scores are very bright and will have the ability to do it. Plus they might just be better at everything a degree requires too. They will also be successful wherever they go. It’s inevitable given their backgrounds.

I did the IB at a state sixth form college back in the very early 90s. You would definitely describe the area I lived in then as mostly deprived. Unfortunately, because low take up, it never really took off and they dropped it after about 10 years. Some of us were UWC rejects ;-) who wanted the IB but I suspect many parents were suspicious.

Our IB offer is a lower bound over all and a lower bound for HL, @TizerorFizz . Of course we also require certain subjects at HL.

I think IB is more demanding of teachers and WP is a moral priority, so A Levels are better for that (and thus for society at large right now).

I wish the equivalence between IB offers and A Level offers would be updated. It is hard because the formats differ. But if eg AAB is a performance at the 75th centile (I am making this up) then the IB offer for a School requiring AAB should be at the 75th centile. Right now it is higher. I think this is how the correspondence was made ages ago, but A Levels have been subject to grade inflation and IB has not, and there has been no revision. This would significantly de-risk the IB.

What was your view of IB, @Temporaryanonymity ?

I think we don’t know about grade inflation for IB. Is that possible too? Unis have surely adjusted their offers to take account of grade inflation so many A level students who don’t get places are feeling the pinch too. Do we know how many take IB and how does that compare with A levels? State grammars here are all A level I think. So if a state school can afford IB it’s hardly on its uppers. I think most IB students are independently educated. Could be wrong of course.

My Dd is in a state school doing IB. I love the curriculum but it is an immense amount of work when you also
factor in the EE/TOK and CAS elements. As @poetryandwine has pointed out there is no parity in alot of cases with A levels in terms of uni offers, particularly at the upper end.

A case in point, my DD has a Cambridge offer which I do think the IB helped her to get (particularly in terms of breadth of knowledge and lateral thinking). However Cambridge’s IB offer for humanities is 42 with 776 at HL. So she can drop a max 3 points across 6 subjects and her EE/tok. A pretty tall order compared to the A star AA required of A level students. And before anyone says an A star is harder - last year 2.7 % got a 7 in history IB HL compared to 5.7% A star for history A level. The examination schedule is also punishing - 15 exams in 2 weeks.

We have found a number of the top universities do the same (Durham being an exception). I wrote to the IBSCA (IB in U.K.) about this last year and again this year but haven’t received any response.

So my view is that the IB may help
a U.K. student to stand out and provide additional skills useful to uni, but at present the lack of grade parity makes it off putting to anyone aware of this before making 6th form choices. Sadly, it has certainly affected my views about whether my other dc would be better off sticking to A levels.

To do a better comparison though, what percentage of DC with IB get offers at Cambridge? Is it higher than A level applicants? What about those predicted Astar x 3 who don’t get in? There’s legions of them. If more dc get an offer with IB do students not have to take that as a positive? The offer is high and maybe that reflects better prep and better odds of success?

Minimum A level offers are usually greatly exceeded by Cambridge students. The A level offer might look low but in reality A level students will be exceeding that.

I would like to know how many IB 6th forms are in deprived areas? Of course students might be recruited from other non deprived areas. In fact, do we know what percentage of state schools offer IB. 1% or 10%? I’ve no idea.

@TizerorFizz i agree that many A level students will exceed their offer but not many IB students will! There is a difference between hoping to exceed your offer and losing your place because you don’t manage the higher offer and the added pressure created in the lead up to exams. I don’t know about IB applicants statistics but i can’t see that it is actually favoured if the offers are so high and certainly my DDs school has no more success with oxbridge offers than neighbouring schools. For my DD I would have said the benefits of the IB were less tangible and in the PS and the interview.

i am not sure i understand your point about the IB and widening access? Surely the parameters should be applied in the same way regardless. <5000 students took the IB in the Uk in 2023
vs 275k doing A levels (so <2%)and yes a significant proportion will be from independent schools but that doesn’t mean that normal contextual offers shouldn’t be applied where appropriate to those who qualify in the state sector.

My thinking was more towards the wide belief it is superior to A levels yet dc want a lower offer too. So in a way, two lots of help. The higher offers might be because IB students hit them? Otherwise would there be an imbalance? A level predictions are notoriously iffy. Obviously no evidence but I’d still love to know how many IB students are in state schools and how many IB students are truly contextual. My local secondary modern is getting contextual offers where schools are used but many dc going there are not disadvantaged at all. Not remotely!

The IBO produced this report some time ago - might be of interest.. https://www.ibo.org/globalassets/new-structure/research/pdfs/uk-higher-education-outcomes-final-report.pdf

There is also quite detailed information about the 2023 results here.. https://www.ibo.org/globalassets/new-structure/about-the-ib/pdfs/dp-cp-provisional-statistical-bulletin-may-2023.pdf
There is a statement on their website: As of May 2023, the IB decided to discontinue the publication of data highlighting the number of IB students achieving the highest top mark (45 data points), to discourage the use of assessment results for comparisons among students, schools, or communities. ... not sure I follow why comparisons are a bad thing?

72,000 diplomas were awarded worldwide in 2023. I also googled to find that there are 4,850 IB students in the UK in 108 schools (not sure if this is over 2 years or one). I don't know how many IB students end up at UK universities either from the UK or abroad.

There was an estimated number of around 326,000 A level candidates in 2023. I could only find the total number of A levels and the average number of A levels taken.

https://www.tes.com/magazine/analysis/general/IB-results-2023-diploma-career-related-dates-scores

136 IB schools in the UK - of which 70 private and 22 state offer the Diploma Programme.

https://www.ibo.org/programmes/find-an-ib-school/?SearchFields.Region=&SearchFields.Country=GB&SearchFields.Keywords=&SearchFields.Language=&SearchFields.BoardingFacilities=&SearchFields.SchoolGender=&SearchFields.TypePublic=true

I think the point that posters including me.. are trying to make about the offers is that it seems to be more difficult to get 776 at IB - achieved by 8% of the candidates - than to get the A level requirements that are asked alongside such an offer, which would be A star A star A - achieved by somewhere between 12% (3 A stars) and 23% (3 A's).

IB students in the UK account for approximately 1% of students, they are not a significant number!

@ChateauMargaux The A levels cover many more subjects though! Your stats take no account of subjects studied. My DD2 had 2 of the highest grades - in photography and art. Obviously not Oxbridge bound. Ditto vast numbers of A level students who are not competing against IB students for anything at all. They might have high grades but in what subjects? You need to compare apples with apples.

DD started doing IB but realised 3 weeks in that all it was doing was forcing her to study subjects (English Maths Biology and German) that she didn't enjoy so she switched to History TPE, Music and Economics A levels that suited her better. TBH I think it depends on what your DC are interested in. If they are very clearly skewed to Humanities or Sciences then it is probably not the right choice. If they are an undecided all rounder or a single subject star who is good as most things then it probably works. At her school the DC that did best at IB were the Chinese international students with their focus on maths music and mandarin who then used English as their second language and physics (supported by the maths) as their science.

@londonmummy1966 So being “international” helped! Interesting observation on language use. Maybe others do this if fluent in another language.

I am from the UK and did A-levels, went to university in the UK. I currently teach in an IB school in the EU.

If my DC were going to study in the UK I would go for A-levels. I personally loved being able to pick my subjects (drop Maths and Sciences and focus on Arts, Language, Humanities). This worked well for me when picking a uni course in the UK as my interests and strengths complimented each other.

I like the IB courses but it's very challenging for students who are more Arts orientated as they can only ever take 1 Arts subject in Group 6 and have to continue with Maths/Sciences.

I think the IB is actually more geared towards those who are more STEM orientated as it's easy to take HL Maths and 2 sciences, with your SL being first and second language (or 2 first languages if you're bilingual as many IB students at International schools are) plus your Humanity (Geography is favoured among more Science students and Economics requires good Maths skills). Or students can request non-regular with 3 sciences and drop their humanity if possible (I think this is only possible if they can prove their university course would only accept them with all 3 sciences - medicine or veterinary in my country).

I do think if intending to study abroad then IB is better (the UK is the only country I know of where students can drop core subjects like Maths, English, Science in pre-university courses). See my earlier post about university admissions in the Netherlands. They say they would not accept Music or Drama A-levels as equivalent to the Dutch high school diploma, whereas in IB students could take an Arts subject in Group 6 if they wish and meet the requirements with overall points.

I think you really need to look at what your child's strengths are as well as their future plans.

I would also consider the social implication of moving my child from an IB only school to an A-level setting. Will they have to start again socially?

If fluent in 2 languages students can take 2 Language As for a bilingual diploma. If students are fluent in their 2nd language then it shouldn't be taken as a Language B (and schools who do that could get in trouble with the IB). Sometimes students might be verbally fluent and good at reading or listening, but terrible in writing if they've nervous had formal instruction in their language but only speak it with family.

Our English B classes are very small because most students have had extensive education in English and have therefore moved up to Language A. Our English Language B students tend to be students who are fairly new to our school and International education. These students are then often forced to take self taught SL in their native language for Language A (needs an outside tutor, not available at HL).

Schools can also offer Ab Initio course at SL for complete beginners. We offer one such course to support English native speakers who come in at DP level or just before because as a tiny school we cannot offer Language B courses in the full range of languages that they might have studied in the UK or US (we don't offer French or German anymore). It's compulsory for us to offer our home country language government rules about what subjects citizens of this country must take and since it's a fairly niche language that is not taught in many other places yes, newcomers don't have enough time to get up to speed for SL.

An EU school isn’t quite the same as here though. MFLs are ann easy choice if it’s English as it’s taught to nearly everyone as their first MFL. Students here don’t get that (English and home language) so I can see there’s greater room for swapping around.

Certainly non-native english learners are generally better at English than native English speakers are at any other MFL because of the fact they start early, often in primary and have so much exposure through film/TV/music/gaming. My kids are bilingual because I'm a native speaker but even their friends who don't have an English native speaker parent speak passable basic English, way beyond what you'd expect a UK primary student to have in an MFL.

However, I would say that for kids whose mother tongue is not English and have had little education in English (and here I mean English as the language of instruction for other subjects and not just English MFL tuition), English B HL might be an "easier" option for them but the rest of the IB isn't. having to write academically in English for their other subjects is a huge challenge for these kids and often the points in the Eng B HL is really important for bring up their total points.

A student who was truly fluent in English wouldn't be allowed to do English B in my school (they'd have to do 2 Language As or a different Language B). I'm sure there are schools who game the system though and put an almost native speaker in a Language B class.

The focus on MFLs in some countries compared to the UK and the fact that International students have often been exposed to multiple languages through schooling and/or family definitely gives them an advantage in the Languages element of the IB. It can also be a problem though. Sometimes kids have moved round so much they have no real mother tongue (or a mother tongue they've never had formal instruction in so written work is poor). Swings and roundabouts!

some schools do game the system and put students in for ab initio language when they have been learning for 4 plus years. Other schools won’t allow students to take ab initio even if their only exposure to the language was a one year course several years ago. Have also seen the same with gcse mfl too

@ShanghaiDiva Well that’s my point. Plus parents think the offers from uni are too high. I think it evens itself out and IB is a choice in most schools. A levels are available. You still have to write English in them too! No dodging that.