Anyone waiting for a Durham offer?

[Annabelnextdoor]

DS has applied for a STEM at Durham. Heard nothing back yet. So thought I’d start a thread so we can share news of offers coming though?
Anyone have any experience as to when offers for STEM are normally made?. The thought of waiting until April seems too much!

Actually I’ve just looked at the website and it looks like they’re doing it differently this year and starting allocating from April … whether this will be better or worse who knows 😂

Last year, there were lots reporting which college they had been provisionally allocated in the spring - and saying they hadn’t firmed or insured yet and wouldn’t be choosing Durham.
Anyone with an offer can out in their college choices. And it seems that in the last few years the provisional allocations are made before lots firm/insure/reject. Given that they have to significantly over-offer to fill as lots then go to Oxbridge, London etc etc, they must also over-offer college places too. And it seems people get reallocated especially from the very popular colleges, so perhaps they even more significantly over-offer on the popular colleges. Those not quite decided might then firm Durham if they feel they’ve got the one they want. Each year, when people are reallocated, a few seem to initially say they woukd t have chosen Durham if they’d known that would be their allocation - although I’m sure they go onto have a good time.
But you do wonder what is the point of doing these early allocations if it’s not to bounce people into firming or to help them build a stronger tie to Durham by making them consider the colleges more? Given they say they want a mix of subjects in each college, those initial allocations include so very many people who won’t actually be coming, makes it almost be meaningless. Other places mostly allocate accommodation halls after results - once they have the relevant info about who is coming. People might not get what they wanted or their top choice, but the fact provisional allocations weren’t done means the disappointment is less.

Why don’t Durham ask for choices after have done their firming and then just allocate after results? And why don’t they ask the most basic question if if someone wants catered or self-catered? I know they cannot guarantee the choice, but asking the basic question seems to be the key one. Every year people report having chosen all self catered colleges and being out in catered which costs £3k more, which their funds won’t cover. And others get the allocation in the opposite direction too - I suppose at least they can save some money.

Haha that’s a question for Durham!

I don’t think there is an easy solution. I don’t think students should apply directly to a college - all teaching is done centrally and so admissions should be handled similarly.

Whilst it is said that all are generally happy with the college the end up with I do think there is a different experience at the Hill colleges vs the Bailey colleges - not saying either is right or wrong. The geography of Durham is such that with the Bailey being minutes from everything in town it is easier just to pop to Tesco’s, a club etc on the spur of the moment. For my dd it was very important to her that she was on the Bailey and certainly that’s the case with all of her friends. That said I’m sure she’d have been happy elsewhere.

I don’t know if there is a greater % of privately educated students in Bailey colleges (it would certainly seem that way) and that may be down to the room sharing (and students at boarding school being used to sharing).My dd shares - pretty much all 1st years in her college share and it really isn’t the big deal it may seem to be to someone applying. Most people aren’t necessarily best mates with their roommates but they coexist perfectly happily and I do feel learn some great skills about getting on with others. Room sharimg isn’t seen as weird it’s just the norm. So I would say don’t be put off applying to those colleges which have a high % of shared rooms.

@KittyMcKitty - why shouldn't applicants apply directly to a college ?

That's how it used to work for many decades: you applied, and if you met some prerequisites, you got an interview with both the college and the department.

Durham have convoluted the process IMO, allowing all offer holders to apply for a college allocation - especially so in April when not all applicants have revealed a reply - and then having to reallocate once results come out.

@lastdayatschool as I said all teaching is done at university level - none is done in the college - they are not in a position to make academic judgements. For my DD’s subject they stress they read every personal statement and there is a teaching professor with responsibility for admissions within the department. It would be wholly inappropriate for selection to be done by non teaching / non subject specialist within a college.

The fact that they did it that way in the past doesn’t mean it was the most appropriate way to do it or indeed the way it should be done in the future. With (anecdotally) the Bailey colleges being favoured by those from private schools it could also lead to bias / discrimination.

@KittyMcKitty and, as I said, you had a departmental interview - more than one in my case - that assessed your academic ability for your subject.

The college interviews weren't a gimme either - they tested your general intelligence, knowledge of current affairs, and your ability to discuss/argue a topic.

IMO, this approach worked well and overcomes:

a) the issue of offer holders deciding not to firm/insure Durham when they don't get the college they want, and

b) the stress at results time when either an applicant is reallocated, or it takes weeks for their college place to be confirmed.

I suppose Durham has expanded significantly and is trying to hold onto some elements of the old system that worked better when it was smaller.

So in the past, people applied to a college and were interviewed by the faculty and college. That isn’t possible these days with such big numbers. Interviews only apply to a small number of subjects and they need the flexibility to shuffle people around post results when they have a better idea of numbers ofr each subject.

But they are keen to emphasise that they are different to universities with Halls of residence and to make the collegiate thing a key differentiator. They absolutely could allocate colleges in the same way other universities allocate halls of residence. They could say that after students have firmed, they can then express X number of preferences. And then they could allocate after results, giving preference to those who listed college preferences earlier (if they wanted to do that) or randomly, or based on subject to get a mix or whatever they want really. But instead, they choose to try and differentiate by asking for college preferences from the point of the offer. It partly harks back to the time when students chose their college via UCAS and on application to the uni and is Oxbridge still do today. It’s not necessary but an attempt to emphasise the collegiate element. I do absolutely think it’s about getting potential students more invested in Durham too. It’s about their numbers and not really about what’s best for the students. The significant re-allocations which have to happen each year and the stresses this creates are not for the good of the students.

I think the provisional college allocations may also work to make it clearer to Durham who will come. Following those, some will decide to firm another uni. Lots decide to firm, because large numbers get their top choices (far more than there are places for as some won’t actually come - bit it also means significant reallocations from those places) After these provisional allocations, lots of people will then firm/insure or reject and this allows Durham to make its its final decisions about how many last offers they can make and how many of those who’ve waited for months need to be rejected. Again, this is for the benefit of Durham more than the students.

I suppose that once students have firmed/insured etc, Durham maybe internally looks at the college allocations again. They can bin from their allocation lists, all those who have rejected Durham and it firmed or insured. This will be a lot of people. Already then, they can see that some colleges have too many allocated to them and some have space for others. But they don’t tell people that until after results day when that further info about who is coming via insurance and who hasn’t made their grades and got a place is known. But I’d think they always know that they’ve over-offered to the popular colleges and will need to reallocate a chunk of those to other colleges.

To me, it seems students should be applying to Durham because they want Durham and not a particular college. There’s zero guarantee of a particular college or if getting Hill or Bailey or even catered or self-catered. You have to take what you get. But Durham want to give an impression that college choice is important and a unique point as that seems to draw people in. More and more stuff is actually centralised, such as the catering arrangements, because financially it makes sense to run it like this, but this idea of lots of little entities which are separate and more than a hall of residence is a big selling point, so they want to keep emphasising this element of Durham.

It’s sad to see students disappointed in the initial allocations in the spring. It’s also sad to see the delays in confirming college allocations and the impact this has on allocating actual accommodation in the period after A Levels, when lots of students are left hanging for a couple of weeks and sometimes haven’t been able to sign up for their modules as a result of the delays. This isn’t good student welfare management. It’s a system which doesn’t need to be there and which creates stress. They like to say it’s so they can take peoples choices and ensure a mix of subjects in each college…but actually these preferences could be expressed and a mix of subjects achieved by simply asking for preferences at the point of firming and doing just one allocation process which is told to students , speedily and efficiently because the initial allocations based upon preferences many who aren’t coming expressed, don’t need unpicking.

@lastdayatschool general knowledge and current affairs aren’t something British universities look at when selecting students. Students are offered places based on academic achievement (both past and predicted) and interest in a subject (plus having taken the appropriate a levels / Met grade profiles etc). None of that is anything to do with a college.

York and Lancaster have a collegiate system - I assume you are also proposing that prospective students should also apply directly to a college there? Should we extrapolate it further that all students should apply directly to the hall of residence at their proposed Uni? I’m assuming not as that would be inappropriate in the same way that colleges being involved in the selection of students at Durham would be inappropriate.

You say the previous approach worked well. I would argue that it worked far from well and was one of the factors which lead to the problems Durham is still trying to overcome namely the disproportionate bias towards those from private / selective schools and the discrimination experienced by those from working class and northern backgrounds. And yes this is still a problem today - my dd was shocked by some of the conversations she has overheard. The figures re private vs state show that there is still a long way to go. Centralised admissions where a pupils academic record and any contextual factors is considered is the only fair way of selecting.

That doesn’t mean that the current situation is perfect - there is much which can be improved and I am sure the Uni are working in that (albeit at Durham pace which is slower then that of a snail!).

I don’t think applicants should apply directly to a college. The same problem as with the current system would exist - allocations to colleges given to people who are not actually going to come - and no way to differentiate between those who will and won’t. Allocating after firm decisions made gives much more certainty and enables those who are much more likely to come to get more of their top preferences.

Interviweing vast numbers is never going to make a come-back. It’s so expensive and a barrier to people applying. They haven’t got the resources to do it. Most of the admissions process is centralised now - the role of departments within this and also colleges is less or none. Basically, the collegiate application and interview method worked when small numbers were involved. Oxbridge can do it still because individual colleges teach and cling to their independence and vitally have significantly more resources to manage a complex and expensive admissions process. Durham don’t have this. Really, it’s admissions runs the same as other universities and is v much centralised. College choices have zero role in whether you get an offer or not. College allocations really are the same as accommodation allocations in other places. In the end, you express a preference and might or might not get what you want. The middle stages of provisional allocation complicate the process and give some sense of colleges being important and Durham different, but also generate an awful lot of stress along the way that could be avoided.

@WombatChocolate allocations were done on 11th May last year - I would have thought a lot of people will have made their firm / insurance choices by then? Certainly both my children had done so a lot earlier.

York and Lancaster have colleges, but I’d say are very much halls of residence. You live in them in the first year and actually rather like Durham, many second years have little to do with their college. They might if they play sport and I expect many go for an odd formal or continue to be invovled in some activities, but some don’t remain very invovled. College life is mostly focused around those living in - mainly first years.

In the past, maybe 40 years ago or more, halls of residences in most universities were catered. People lived in corridors and came down to eat together. There was a strong sense of community and lots of hall organised activities such as parties and other stuff. These days, much new uni accommodation is self catered. In some of these places there is nowhere to eat as a bigger community, or much social space which is actually used and students stay in their smaller units or flats. It’s a different thing and different experience with such accommodations not providing an active social life, but instead the university itself organising this stuff more centrally. That’s the way most universities have gone, even when there is some catering provided. Many places offer centralised catering options rather than in the accommodations themselves. Some provide a few meals per week and then flexible lunch or weekend cards. It’s not a 7 days a week, eating with the people you live with 3 times a day. Students seem to like the self catering and flexibility - it cheaper and it offers a different experience which is quite different from th small communities of Durham colleges or old traditional catered halls of residence (Nottingham still has catered halls on site that give a similar experience - which people seem to love or really dislike these days).

So Durham, York, Lancaster are keen to emphasise the college experience and have colleges set us as part of their constitutions. I don’t know lots about Lancaster, the Durham and York are increasingly building self catering accommodations. It’s a different experience and not one that fits so well with the traditional collegiate idea which is all about being together and eating together as a core element of it. I think Durham’s self catering colleges have spaces so everyone can eat together at formals. But York’s newer colleges on Campus East don’t have that. Instead those colleges have a weekly catered meal located somewhere else in a centralised location which hosts different self catering colleges on different days. Not every college has a bar or other facilities - instead they are shared between a couple of colleges or are centrally located for sue between several colleges. It makes sense finically to provide it like that, but the small college community feel is rather lost and colleges essentially become accommodation for first years and something other students don’t feel such an affinity to.

Probably a collegiate system is just too expensive to run and sustain. Durham has the old Bailey colleges with their shared rooms and lack of en-suites, charging more than most universities charge for modern en-suite facilities. There seem to be plenty of applicants, but shared rooms and catered 3 meals a day doesn’t seem to be the direction of travel with what students want. Each small college having its own staff and sing in at overheads and costs through not having many facilities shared with other colleges adds to costs. Students like the idea of colleges, but financially it’s probably a nightmare for Durham.

Yes, you’d have thought so. Perhaps lots wait too though, to see which college allocation they get. Some seem to see it as an extra bit of info they need to know before deciding if Durham will be firmed or somewhere else….an extra stage that only Durham is adding. Unlike with other unis where applicants wither want the uni or don’t, it seems the college system complicates the decision for some. They decid they want Durham if they get. X college but if they don’t, instead they will go for one of their other popular choices. So I think some people actually are slowed down in their firming choices. And this hinders Durham because it need to know how many are firmed in order to make their final decisions about how many last offers they can make. It really would be better if only firmed applicants could select colleges.

Yes I agree re firmed applicants making choices. Also in terms of reallocation they say that the order of keeping your provisional college goes like this:

Met / exceeded offer
near miss
insurance

so I would assume insurance has a high chance of reallocation. My dd’s college has the lowest allocation rates and everyone she knows there met / exceeded their offer however my dd and a number of her friends waited for 2 weeks to be confirmed into their college which was a nightmare (and one which Durham acknowledge is not good and are looking to improve - I spoke to people about this in October - so after all the dust had settled and they readily admit that it is appalling). I do also appreciate that when the majority are unshared rooms it adds an extra complexity of needing to balance make / female students.

I would say that whilst Durham admissions are not great everything else has been amazing. Her college has exceeded her already high expectations in every respect, her department is amazing and she loves her subject and she adores the city.

She is also pleased to be in a catered hall as Uni / college life is so busy that she is glad not to have to think about it. She has non DU catering which by all accounts is better then the DU stuff.

I do think a lot of students maintain close ties with their colleges after the 1st year. The college libraries are very well used and attendance at balls and other socials is great as it is with sport. Having a JCR I think really maintains that link - Chads unlike some other colleges have JCR presidents / senior officers who are current students (generally yr 3) which I think makes a difference.

^ in shared rooms not unshared rooms!

@WombatChocolate thank you for pointing out the flaw in my suggestion to revert to the old approach, in that it just doesn't scale for today's volume of applicants, most of whom are predicted multiple A*s, so can't be filtered out at the 'prerequisite criteria stage.

Based on this, I believe the best approach would be for applicants to only apply for a college either:
a. once they've firmed Durham, or
b. once they've received their results

i.e. as most universities do with respect to halls of residence.

You also raise a very interesting point about how important/relevant the choice of college should be to a Durham applicant nowadays.

Based on the regular comments on Mumsnet and the various other forums, it does appear to have significant input into applicants' decisions, but, as you say, maybe nowadays, focus should be more on gaining a place at the university itself.

@KittyMcKitty We're not going to agree on this topic so I'll stop. However, I just want to point out that:

1: Lancaster and Yorks' collegiate system are in no way comparable to Durham's - I say that as a graduate of both Durham and York, i.e. direct experience of both.

2: I was a state school educated in the North of England when I arrived at Durham. Yes, there probably was (and still is) a bias towards those educated in the public and private school system - whether that bias is conscious or unconscious only the university admissions department can answer.

Also, undoubtedly, discrimination issues occur/occurred, as they probably also do/did at other institutions favoured by the privately educated, e.g. Bristol, Bath, Exeter, Edinburgh etc., and these are abhorrent. However, they weren't widespread in my college/department (mid 90s) and, from speaking to my nieces - both at Durham currently - they aren't nowadays either.

DS has already been sent his college preference form and because he didn't have clue which ones to choose he left it up to me to research and send him a list which he then sent in

He's not bothered where he gets allocated as it's all the same to him really

He says he's not bothered if he has to share but I think he'd hate it.

I think they must top slice offers because those applying to Oxbridge got offers that DS knows by Nov

On UCAS you just put your 5 choices there's no first choice at that point

Where we live are excellent state schools and private

They all do well if they're that way inclined it's just that the state schools are more diverse and much larger but cater to all abilities so no one loses out because of it

It also means you have millionaire DC alongside the most deprived DC and they hang out together and can be who they want to be

And of course most schools then diverge into 6th form so they get to mix with prior private school DC who start off full of themselves and utter entitled snobs to become more well rounded (most anyway )

Some aren't academic enough for their private school 6 th form and most do t have a 6th form at their private school

They have to adapt to DC who are way cooler than them and more socially aware the private school DC adapt quickly though because the state school DC have huge integrated friendship circles and are more open and welcoming once the private school DC show they have proven themselves not to be entitled snobs

We live in a city for reference

Sorry Mirror, but are you saying that all of the DC who come from the private schools are utter entitled snobs?

It’s the kind of sweeping generalisation that I expect from 17 year olds who’ve visited an Open Day and spoken to 1 person who was very well-spoken. But it strikes me again how many parents also take this kind of view and view those who’ve been to private school as a collective who all behave the same, and who are somehow bad.

It doesn’t surprise me that so many DC have a concern about going somewhere with bigger numbers of privately educated students (even when many of those concerned might be from more affluent middle class families themselves) because lots of parents seem to have a serious hang-up about this themselves and of course our attitudes get passed to our children, whether we are aware if it or not.

Judging people we’ve not even met, seems alive and well across the age groups. I’m sure some kids and parents too from some private school backgrounds who haven’t really mixed with a range if people might also have pre-conceived ideas about what ‘others’ are like, which turn out to be wrong, or to have a much slighter reality than they’d thought. Certainly the idea that everyone from a particular school type behaves in a certain way can only be a stereotype and not based on the person taking that view knowing a number of people from that background.

Oh @WombatChocolate rolls eyes

I can't write loads on MN so pick at what you want

Yes it's sort of generalisation

You'd have to be a completely insufferable idiot to think someone thinks all privately educated DC are entitled snobs

So no @WombatChocolate of course I don't think that

I'm clearly generalising on a public platform with limited writing space and just ea t to get my basic point across based on where I live

Where I have worked as a teacher and where my DC have and do go to school

We have built up huge friendship circles over the years so my experience is vast in this area

@WombatChocolate you have decided as is the norm for so many like you on MN to not read a past properly ti not understand it's wider context and to pick out tiny details to magnify to suit your needs to create an argument

Whilst putting me down at the same time by inferring I'm childish and live under a rock

You could not be further from the truth

I am well travelled have lived and worked abroad

Have myself been to private and state schools

My experience is actually quite unique

Not sure who said it but Durham clearly don’t ’top slice’ based on grades given how many perfect score candidates don’t get offers, or get them late.

@WombatChocolate having reread you last post I would like to add you have written what you think is clever and insightful. It's actually complete bollocks

I can only go on my current experience in that all of DS friends who applied for Oxbridge and Durham with predicted A stars and A all got offered places by Nov

I'm just basing my comments on that

A PP mentioned too slicing

My comment was in answer to that PP that perhaps they do

I have no idea if they do

How could I as I do not work at Durham Uni

I am adding to a PP comments with my experience thus far

I hope that's ok to add to a discussion on a public forum