Law offers

[JacketPotatoQueen]

Hi all, just wondering if anyone has a feel for law degree offers from RG unis, and whether it is in the same sort of ballpark as Economics, for example. I understand with Economics it is super competitive and many students who meet entry requirements in terms of predicted grades do not get offers. Just wondered if it is the same for law? On the face of it, my DC meets the requirements for Durham, York, Nottingham etc in their predicted grades. But I would prefer them to add other non RG unis as well, in case their application is still not good enough to get offers. Any experience out there? Thank you!

Yes, there are two points - my list is bigger firms and the Tiger list is the worse paid ones. Both lists I think are pure numbers of trainees tehrefore a university with hardly any law graduates (small ones) look worse.

More generally it is easier to move down to a less regarded firm than move up later to a better one.

For those who are interested, US firm’s in London looks like this. I think it’s inevitable London has a different profile from elsewhere as can be seen from the many London Unis represented. The usual suspects still doing well though! These American firms pay very well but they demand very hard work. They know Oxbridge grads are used to that. Exeter has moved up though! London large firms are not hugely different.

@TizerorFizz Do you have any specific if the YP definitely wants to be a barrister and not a solicitor ? Does that change where they should do their law degree ? I’m aware they could do a non law degree and then a GDL.
Thank you.

The charts are all very useful, thank you!

I can't really help re selection for universities, but just to add that many of the recruitment processes for pupillage (and TCs I imagine) now redact names of schools and universities from applications. I say this as someone involved in recruitment for a set of chambers - we redact names of all institutions so I don't know from where the applicants obtained their degree; we know their subject, classification and module grades.

@Cobwebs5 DD is a barrister and obviously loads of her friends are! She was Bristol but did MFL. Lots are Oxbridge. Lots! These unis are hugely popular for commercial law and the big hitting Chambers with numerous KCs. Some barely recruit from elsewhere and competition is fierce. DD has friends who did post grad MLaw at Cambridge. This opens doors. You need to be very bright to get on it. Family and Crime are less bothered about uni. Crime barely pays. Family does if you are at the right Chambers. They look for bright personable people who advocate well and have done plenty of work to enhance their cv. Paid or unpaid. You have to prove you want it!

More recently, candidates with firsts are more likely to get pupilage. So DD has colleagues who went to Warwick, Oxbridge, UCL, Durham, - everyone was decent RG. Many don’t have law degrees.

The most important thing is to decide what area of law. Don’t expect to get the big money if you want crime. Some areas like human rights are very very competitive. You need to be special! If you are likely to get a first from Oxbridge, you have options. A first from Blog uni? Possibly not. 2:1 from Oxbridge is better. Always do mini pupilages when at uni, join an inn of court, and go to everything! Network.Debate. Present well. Speak clearly. Be confident. Do not apply for an Oxbridge type set if that’s not your league! Be honest about what you can do - and what you cannot do.

Lastly look at various chambers to see the profile. Many barristers will have prizes and scholarships from the inns and training providers. DD got £18,000 worth of scholarship money to train. The degree and uni is just the start. However an academic subject is really important. Go to open days at the inns of court and talk to barristers. DD has just been involved in one for students. Lots of unis represented. They do workshops and Q&A sessions.

Happy to provide more info if you need it.

Thank you @Fwiw2
In that case it would be better to go to a lower ranked university, where the entry grades are lower, where it would be easier for the bright student to get a 1st. Hmmmmm, very interesting.

Thank you @TizerorFizz for your very detailed response.
I had lunch at Lincoln’s Inn last month, absolutely fabulous !

@Cobwebs5 No. The number of barristers from lower ranked unis is still very small. DD says her chambers don’t look at uni but they sift via many other measures and tests. Without much exception, the unis at the top of those lists tend to be successful. Where older people have converted to law after other successful careers, you do tend to get a greater mix.

What you do not need to study at undergrad is law. If you truly are better at another academic subject, do it. No one discriminates between History, MFL, Classics etc as long as you tick all the other boxes. It’s still a risk to think a first from a much lower ranked uni trumps a 2:1 from Durham or Oxford. They can see A levels. You might get an interview (hundreds don’t) but the stats are still stacked against you. I always think making sure you get all your ducks in a row pays off. Definitely go to a uni on the lists I posted.

I also didn’t find my law degree in the slightest bit boring.

I second TizerorFizz re the Bar (DD3 is a London barrister too - human rights, public law type of stuff).

@Cobwebs5 I chair the pupillage committee in a Lincoln’s Inn set of Chambers (glad you enjoyed your lunch!). You’ve had lots of excellent advice which I won’t repeat, but key points for anyone wishing to secure that pupillage interview include:

1. Study an academic subject at an excellent university, and preferably get a First (for London civil/commercial sets anyway). Some strong 2:1 candidates will be interviewed too. Make sure you cultivate academic referees who really know you and can speak to your strengths and suitability for the Bar.
2. Optionally, do a BCL (Oxford) or LLM (Cambridge). Definitely not necessary but equally can add points in the pupillage sift. We tend to find BCL candidates in particular do well in the process.
3. The non-law route followed by conversion does not disadvantage you and we find non-law graduates do every bit as well as law graduates in our selection process.
4. Take part in pupillage fairs. Nowadays some good ones are done remotely so are accessible from anywhere. Understand the differences between Chambers and their practice areas. Apply for mini-pupillages but you don’t need to do loads (hard to fit in with studies) just enough to refine your direction in terms of where to apply.
5. Do some mooting, but also be aware that every single other interviewee will have done mooting competitions (of which there are many) so we don’t get over-excited that you got to the semi-finals or whatever. Tell us what you learned from the process.

@Dixiechickonhols I’d think long and hard if I were your child about doing their law degree at Queens if they want to practice in England and Wales. The law in Northern Ireland is very different to the law in England. Sure they may be able to be admitted to practice in England but they won’t have the same knowledge as their contemporaries with English law degrees so will be competing with one hand behind their back.

My company operates in England and Ireland (Northern and ROI) and I have one NI lawyer and one ROI lawyer in my team who report in to me - both the processes and procedures and the actual law in both Northern Ireland and ROI bear no relation to what I and my team members who are qualified in England are advising the English arm of the company.

Just some examples - they only introduced the concept of registered land in 1990 so most of their Land law syllabus which deals with unregistered land will be obsolete in England, they didn’t implement the Civil Procedure Rules so litigation is run completely differently, the Family Law syllabus will also be largely obsolete, criminal courts operate differently

@Katrinawaves I flagged up some of those issues re Queens on a previous thread and that merely looking at league tables doesn’t build up a picture regarding employment. Its out of the mainland loop and therefore not appearing in tables of employment in a prominent position. Academic league tables don’t differentiate about where you can practice. It’s likely that Queens students stay in Northern Ireland. It’s also true Oxbridge students are more likely to go to London so fewer of them elsewhere.

Thank you @Marisquita

I agree that it would be a huge risk to attend any other than one of the highest ranked universities that you have the grades for.
But I would like to explore this a little further if I may. Even though chambers are recruiting university blind, it’s still pupils that have attended Oxbridge or top RG universities that are gaining pupillage, but that may be because they are the better candidates, those who had the highest A level grades.

Let’s say we had two identical candidates with 3 A stars at a level. One goes to a top RG university and gains a 2:1. The other goes to a lower tier university, where the entry requirements are BCC. Surely that YP, all other things being equal, gains a first.
Surely the second candidate has a better chance, with a chambers that recruits university blind, of gaining pupillage ?

The only two counter arguments that I can think of are that the course and teaching might be better at the RG university. Is this generally the case ?
Secondly that the YP will gain from being around brighter people at the RG university. Do you think this is the case ?

Having said all this, I still agree it would be a huge risk to go anywhere other than a top RG university.

I loved my law degree - not boring at all! Whether or not it’s boring totally depends on what interests you.

@Cobwebs5 Don’t assume that “university-blind” is the norm. It isn’t.

Thanks for taking time for a detailed response. We are a legal family so very aware. I’m a solicitor. My husband is too, he’s English qualified but was delivering legal training to NI practicing solicitors in Belfast yesterday (Litigation)

We aren’t city law but two very close relatives are (trained magic circle)
I don’t think she will want to qualify as a Solicitor or barrister. But is keeping options open by applying for qualifying law degree.
Shes very interested in politics her offer at Queens is law with politics. I suspect she may go down civil service/foreign office/UN type route.
Another attraction of studying in NI is you are eligible for British Council scholarship for year at a USA college in yr 3. Studying in usa is on her wish list.
She hasn’t heard from her other 4 choices as yet. All required lnat but we of course don’t know results from that. Her other choices are Oxford, Kings, Glasgow and Durham.

@Cobwebs5 University is part of the mix. However do you truly think working and learning at a BBC tarrif uni is the same as being at a LNAT one? You simply are not with the best or learning from the best. It’s almost certainly more hand holding and Chambers do look for many attributes. If they look at uni, and plenty do, they think someone with top A levels has not challenged themselves and has taken the easy route. It isn’t the best decision. They know that other unis prepare students better. Also 50% don’t do law at all. Other degrees are valued. Also a first isn’t everything at all. Anyone wanting pupilage needs to understand the big picture. So scholarship from an Inn, training provider and experience and attributes all matter. Dd hardly uses law from her GDL. Family is not law intensive. Advocacy, on the other hand, is paramount.

I meant to add: this is why you need to evaluate who you are and what you are best at. Then target likely chambers. Don’t scattergun or think you can switch around.

@TizerorFizz
Very helpful, thank you.

The lawyers' answers on this thread are very good. The tables from Tizer showing US law firms and city firms are pretty much the universities at the top I would have expected. I also agree not all firms recruit institution blind (most don't) and that is because of sheer weight of numbers. There are so many applicants there are just not the resources in some firms to drop filters like AAB A levels and 2/1 and looking at university., My 4 lawyer children were at Bristol, Nottingham, Bristol, Bristol. They are or are about to be solicitors as am I but I have worked with lots of good London chambers' barristers regularly through my work too.

On the interesting point of whether first at not so good university is better than 2/1 at Oxbridge or another top university, it is not as simple as the first will trump everything even if the A levels grades are stellar too. Some universities do not teach as well. Sometimes if the cohort in which you are is not too bright then the unviersity experience is worse as debates about issues with fellow students may not be as good. (I always joked I paid school feesl at academically selective schools to buy a peer group for teenagers as your friends influence you as much as anything else when you are a teenager and perhaps the same also applies to good universities - it can be helpful for a bright student if everyone else around them is similarly bright).

However if someone is disadvantaged from a sink comprehensive from my native Newcastle and gets really good A level grades and a first from the local university in law plenty of law firms will put that in context and would consider it.

It is not just a first that swings it for these jobs. A 2/1 is fine (except perhaps top of the bar in best chambers) but whether first or 2/1 you need a lot of other things too

also the whole institution blind thing is a bit of a joke when modules have to be written down. It is immediately obvious who is oxbridge and who is not when the module list is considered.

Well Jurisprudence is a bit of a giveaway for any Oxford undergrads….

At one point (not for lawyers) the civil service got more, not fewer, Oxbridge people when they went institution blind as the Oxbridge people were better so got the jobs.

DD4 is currently doing final year applications and her degree is Literae Humaniores. Also a giveaway for Oxford.