Academic rigour at HYMPS (US) vs Oxbridge (UK)

[eggsbenedict23]

Hi,

Was briefly chatted about DS about UCAS and year 13. Has already signed for the TMUA and has finished the PS.

Speaking about US unis we saw that still for many (but not all) of HYMPS the SAT/ACT is optional. And we also saw the application deadline is early January. We are considering just trying an application to see what happens.

Did some googling. I know how these universities like breadth and well roundedness but now does the actual course compare?

I've read that the actual academics and studying are less academically rigorous? Is that true.

As in does a degree in Economics from Cambridge convey more economics knowledge than a Economics degree from Harvard/Stanford let's say?

OP,

It’s me again so I will not reiterate my qualifications. But honestly, only a British person could formulate this query.

The general consensus is that worldwide the strongest mathematically orientated economics programmes are Harvard, MIT and Stanford, in various orderings. Right behind them are Chicago and Berkeley and in the UK, LSE and Cambridge. (Oxford takes a different approach to the subject.) At the UG level they all offer a superb education with uniformly high standards. The educational differences between them are more important to doctoral students.

The special thing about Cambridge (and Oxford) is the tutorial system. When tutors and students engage properly, there is nowhere to hide, the learning is bespoke, and incredible strides can be made. This ideal requires much effort from both sides, but even when it is only partially achieved it is very effective. That is nothing to do with academic rigour or American vs British standards, however.

If anything, it is an advantage that Americans begin doctoral work by taking course modules and exceptional undergraduates may be allowed to take introductory doctoral course modules. This option is not available in the UK.

@eggsbenedict23 - DS2 has just started at Princeton. He may major in an Economics related offering but it's early days.

@poetryandwine gives good advice but given I have two other DC at Oxford I have some first hand insight to add.

At Princeton you can tailor your course to your our needs and interests. There are requirements if you want to major in a particular subject eventually but you can challenge yourself if you want to. DS2 has started off with a higher level economics class because he has a strong A Level in it, That wouldn't happen in the UK.

It's worth noting that each institution needs a separate application and they're quite time consuming (essays etc). Your DC may struggle to find the time to submit an application now if they're going n Year 13. I can't imagine either DS1 or DD doing it when they were mid A Levels and Oxford and application.

Finally, simply being academic won't get a UK applicant into one of these schools. They all look for a really rounded /exceptional candidate. DS2 is an athlete and a junior world champion. The other Brits (and the Americans) typically have something 'wow' on their CV.

hi dc24 is currently applying for both Oxbridge and Ivys. has friends in both and has no worries - likes the USA system of grwater choices. will be very fortunate to get in either pkace and yes has a v spikey profile for USA

He's 24 and applying for UG?

Further to @HoneyMobster ’s comments:

Yes, the top American universities ( with the possible exception of MIT, I really don’t know) are looking for a different profile to the top British ones.

And the goal of an undergraduate education really isn’t to cram in as much knowledge as possible; it is to learn how to think effectively. All academic disciplines evolve over time. Only those who can think for themselves will be able to keep up, and to transfer their skills - such as higher order analytical thinking - into new contexts.

BTW Princeton is a good example. It is an excellent choice for Economics (indeed, for virtually everything it offers), probably a world top 10 or close. Within the Ivy League it is noteworthy for having a greater proportion of ladder track faculty involved with undergraduate tutorials (like everywhere but Oxbridge these are small groups, not 1-1’s or 2-1’s) and Y1-Y2 students. This is much more useful than world rankings for UG students.

Strong UG students benefit from a research environment, but there are trade offs. Someone who excels at any great university or elite liberal arts college is going to have the background to succeed. Research rankings (to a point) are for PG considerations.

I agree that in Economics, particularly, coming from the top of the Ivy League/Chicago/Berkeley/possibly NYU, Michigan is a likely advantage for going directly into employment. For any type of PG study, top marks and letters, hence a strong CV, from a much wider pool than this will make you competitive at top US programmes.

24 is the entry year - v common now for young people to refer to the year they leave school. Etc etc

Just like to point out that social mobility in the US and the UK is very similar (equally poor) in both countries according to recent data, however people in the US tend to overestimate social mobility and people in the UK tend to underestimate it.

OP: Harvard - 1,942 admitted; total number of applications for the Class of 2027 was 56,937. Similar for the other top US colleges mentioned. Your child
would be very lucky to have to worry about whether the academic standard were good enough for them

Yes being admitted to an elite university in the US is no small feat. My DS has an economics degree from the #9 ranked university. The cost of attendance there right now is $82,000 per year for 4 years. And the admittance rate is about 7-8%.

DS’s university had an international population of about 20% but he never mentioned that there were many British students.

Thanks PPs. I was just thinking about how hard it is to get in. But then once someone is it, how is the actual curriculum like?

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/economics-business

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2021/economics-econometrics?&tab=indicators

take your pick

When you say acceptance rate of 7-8% how many universities does a typical highly academic student apply for - is it limited to 5 like in the UK?

@fiftiesmum as many as they like! No restrictions and you apply to each one individually- so no universal PS so can tailor it to fit each uni. You pay though for each application.

Acceptance rate is a poor metric to compare US against UK Universities, not least because you can only apply to one of Oxford or Cambridge. Some US universities have been accused of encouraging applications from those who have relatively little chance of acceptance to boost their rankings.

This is as good a ranking as any https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2023/economics-econometrics

but does not tell you too much about the Under Graduate experience. Nor does it tell you too much about the suitability of each course for an individual. For example what do you want to do post graduation - work in the City or stay in academia. For academia, Bocconi is also very well regarded.

All major departments will have a large choice of options. Indeed as part of a US degree you will be required to take a number of courses outside your major, and the biggest difference between the US and the UK is probably depth vs breadth. I would argue that someone who had done four years in one of the UK Universities mentioned (UG and Masters) and taken a lot of maths and statistics options will have stronger maths knowledge because our system is so specialised, but the US graduate will have broader skills.

OP please don't worry so much. Any University within about the top 30 on world rankings, and probably more, will be fine. What will matter is how much he enjoys life at the University itself and the teaching style. Your DS needs to focus on his A levels, and not be too distracted by applications. US applications are a lot of work and US Universities are expensive. All the Universities you talk about are competitive, and it is important that if he does not get his preferred option, that he does not think of others as second best.

I am always amused to see my own alma mater rated in the top 5 in the world - as it was way back when. It certainly did not seem I was getting a top 5 education and it did nothing to prepare me for actual work, even though quite a vocational course! A degree is a degree, what you do with it is down to the individual.

Lots of good advice here, OP.

I may have left an impression that rankings are more important for PG study than they are. It is certainly true that they matter much more. But again, really, doing great work at a world top 30 place will get you noticed internationally - although it is undeniably easier to take those first steps if you are doing that work at a world top 10 place. The difference between No 3 and No 7 or No 17 and No 21 is largely subjective.

Top British students are more genuinely independent than Americans, possibly because either they are at Oxbridge where independent thought is encouraged or, as PP have said, they are left to get on with it. But I have not found that a superior performance (to Americans) trickles down very far at all. Not nearly to our average First Class degree candidate, for example. (And we are STEM, just below COWI in our subject) For the rest, the American tradition of regular assignments and assessments unquestionably promotes more evenly paced, ultimately deeper learning. (Regular assignments are fine for top students, too)

We regularly have students where I work doing placements - the UK students are much more aware of what they should be doing and what they need to know than the US students even though the US students are older ie have been out of high school longer.

@fiftiesmum Without doubting you in the least, where are you located?

I am neither American nor British, and I always find that adjusting to a foreign culture is cognitively demanding. I would expect anyone to have more brain space for their job in their home country. (Even the language differences between the UK and the US take a bit of brain work at first). Also, if your programme is highly competitive I agree that top British students are more independent!

The reason I ask is because DS asked a Cambridge outreach person (a current economics student) . "Oh did you ever consider the US?"

And the student replied "oh no, too expensive, can't specialise early enough and 'US degrees aren't academically rigorous' ".

And it made both of us think "really?"

Anyway DS is currently practising for the TMUA.

Cambridge outreach UG - consider the source, OP.

We are based in central London. The UK students are between third and fourth year and US students are in their fifth year. It is not necessarily cultural/language as we also get students from Europe (reasonable English, knowledge standards vary).
They are all selected by their own universities.

The cultural gap between the US and Europe is pretty high. I feel much closer to home in the UK, and not just geographically, than in the US.

Do they come at different times of year, @fiftiesmum ? Otherwise I don’t understand the way you have described timings. Summer vs academic year. Also, the standard US programme is 4 years long. There are a few intensive 6 yr programmes that will earn a student dual degrees.

UK students come over the summer - two to three groups with some overlap. The US ones come from September onwards they are on four year main programmes having already done two to three years of a bachelor's course (they imply it is a doctoral programme)

I am also confused z@Wallaw The UK students come after Y3. The second post suggests that dome Americans come from Sept onwards of Y3. These students would nearly a year younger and IMO experiencing greater cultural shock than Europeans with a good command of English.

But yes, there are a few dual degree programmes e.g BSc and Ph.D or BSc and MD in America. I don’t think they are a good idea, too intense. This is not the British system transplanted.

I haven’t heard of dual programs for BSc and PhD or BSc and MD. They would typically be a 4 year bachelors followed by a graduate program.

Some people can do a double major bachelors degree, or accelerate a masters while still doing a bachelors, so completing a masters level in 5 years instead of 6.

The doctoral programs I’m aware of that begin as a direct entry in freshman year are generally medical and include Dr of Physical Therapy and Dr of Pharmacy. They are usually 6 full years, with a higher class concentration and 2 summers, so pretty much 7 school years crammed into 6.

Engineering degrees are also frequently 5 year degrees.