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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Original poster

Should my son do a 4 year MSC/MMath degree rather than the 3 year BSC degree?

25 replies

IKnowNothingAboutTrees · 02/10/2023 21:35

My son is doing his A levels next summer and wants to study Maths at University.
He is applying for Cambridge, UCL, Warwick, Durham and Bath.
He has already done his Maths A level this summer and got an A*.
His predicted grades in his other 3 subjects are all A* (Physics, Chemistry and Further Maths).

He has been getting advice from his maths teacher (who studied at Cambridge) and he has advised my son to apply for the 4 year MSC/MMath degree rather than the 3 year BSC degree because it will give him more opportunities and greater earning potential.

I've advised him that he will end up with an 80k debt instead of a 60k debt but it doesn't seem to bother him (not that he really understands debt fully at 17).

I think for most of them if you start with a 3 year BSC you can switch to the 4 year MSC at after a couple of years.
I guess my worry is that he won't enjoy it and might want to finish after 3 years.
Is it possible to switch from 4 years to 3 in this situation?

Any thoughts or advice?

OP posts:
hellsbells99 · 02/10/2023 21:46

My DD started with a 4 year MMath - she was advised to do it this way as funding was simpler to drop down to 3 years rather than increase from 3 to 4 years. In the end, she decided she only wanted to do the 3 year degree and get a graduate job. She has now been working for 3 years and her work are paying for her to do a part-time masters degree.

Scampuss · 02/10/2023 22:10

It is cheaper to get a Masters level qualification by doing this as fees are set at undergrad levels. You don't have to stay on for it though!

User11010866 · 02/10/2023 22:35

The courses are interchangable for most universities . Whatever you choose, need to get to 2:1 standard for the master course.

SparklyTwoes · 03/10/2023 06:45

It’s good advice.

You can absolutely drop out - but its then effortless to carry on if they want to.

YukoandHiro · 03/10/2023 06:50

It's good advice. Lots of STEM employers do require the masters level degree and this is the cheapest way of getting it as the fees are so much less.

The debt is a lot to consider in the abstract but it's actually just an extra rate of tax. Many many graduates will never repay their student debt. It's written off after 30 years and doesn't count towards anything like mortgage applications.

Youonlygetonelife19 · 03/10/2023 07:22

As others of said he should apply for 4 year and switch at end of year 2 if he decides to do 3 years. My son did this at Warwick and was straight forward. There are many reasons for doing 3 years, eg to pursue a different type of MSc, or to pursue a financial or actuarial degree with more years of study where MSc makes no difference in the long run.

handmademitlove · 03/10/2023 07:29

Applying for the 4 year course will provide funding for 4 years. If he decides to do the 3 year course, it is straightforward to drop down. It is much more hassle to move up from 3 to 4 years as you would require an extra year of funding.

Doing a masters as an integrated course is much cheaper than doing a bachelors then a masters.

OlizraWiteomQua · 03/10/2023 07:46

Yes he should definitely go for the 4 year MMaths in this circumstance.

The additional debt is not an issue. Repayments will be the same whatever length of couse and your ds is clearly a good enough mathematician to see that.

It's very easy to drop from the 4 year to the 3 year course if he doesn't thrive.

But you know how you see a lot on mumsnet threads the fact that the human brain doesn't finish growing till age 25 - that works as a positive for early,career mathematicians. The brain of a well-trained 25 year old is massively better at maths than the same person will be at age 45. It is eminently sensible to reach as high as he can at degree level. He'll probably end up doing a DPhil and solving some totally incomprehensible problem that non-mathematicians can't begin to understand, but by the age of 35 will settle into a somewhat more comprehendible job. Meanwhile 25 years later another bright young spark will do a DPhil which takes that idea from your DS's DPhil and combines it with some kind of new understanding in physics or engineering to create something amazing.

But yes he should go for it.

Chickenfeed67 · 03/10/2023 07:55

@OlizraWiteomQua eh? So it’s all downhill after 25, and we’re much more stupid by age 45? Does experience count for nothing?

OlizraWiteomQua · 03/10/2023 08:08

Only for mathematicians. A 45 year old mathematician is still a genius compared to otdinary folk but will probably not achieve an amazing advance in new mathematical discoveries. The under-30s in an academic maths department will be the ones making the most exciting discoveries because their brains are at their absolute peak for mathematical performance at that time. As they age they will remain highly respected and older mathematicians can still have a great and worthwhile career but yes they will slow down a bit. No shame in that. If you are upset by that idea then mathematics is the wrong career path for you.

Spinet · 03/10/2023 08:11

I get your worry but I would take advice from the person who has been studying in that arena.

Your son will lament it forever if it's an opportunity that closes when everyone else at University knows that's how you do it if you want to reach the highest levels. Honestly, that's how the class system pervades.

kamboozled · 03/10/2023 08:16

When I went to university I was under the loan 1 scheme (the first lot who paid the debt back via tax). I had about 20k debt I guess?

Fast forward 12 years later and I've paid less than 100 pounds.... ever

Write of is in 13 years, so I reckon I got a free 20 k grant tbh. Don't worry about the difference between 40 to 60 k unless he's going to be earning super bucks

poetryandwine · 03/10/2023 08:43

Hi, OP -

Former STEM admissions tutor here, and DH is a Russell Group Maths professor. All of this advice s sound! Best wishes to your DS

blobby10 · 03/10/2023 09:18

My son did Maths with Finance at KCL for 3 years then worked for 3 before doing a Masters in Data Science at Exeter. After 3 years of uni in London he was fed up with not earning any money and has self funded his Masters. He did say that for Data Science earning potential he wishes he had done physics at A level instead of Economics. He also did Maths and Further Maths A level but dropped Psychology as there was too much writing involved!

Chickenfeed67 · 03/10/2023 10:50

@OlizraWiteomQua Of course that’s not true, that is a lazy and ageist trope. Google is your friend here, give it a try.

OlizraWiteomQua · 03/10/2023 12:03

@Chickenfeed67 wow. I guess it's also lazy and agist to suggest that an olympic medalist level 25 year old male at the peak of his physical fitness will generally beat a 45 year old (who was at that level 20 years ago) at a 100m sprint because the 45 year old has that much more experience. Do you actually work in mathematics academia or are you just looking for something to take offense at?

Original poster
IKnowNothingAboutTrees · 03/10/2023 12:32

Thanks for your replies, I feel reassured that applying for the 4 year MSC is the best choice.

PS. Someone said the period to pay back the student loan is 30 years, it's been increased to 40 years so if he gets a starting salary of 40k or 50k, he will probably pay back a couple of hundred thousand... but maybe that's something to worry about further down the road.

OP posts:
poetryandwine · 03/10/2023 13:49

@OlizraWiteomQua the greatest mathematical achievement of our age was produced by Andrew Wiles. He was over 40, hence too old for a Fields Medal. A small (!) compensation has been a knighthood and the naming of the Mathematical Institute at Oxford in his honour. (His FRS predates this accomplishment.)

Your statement contains elements of truth but no more than that. A number of top researchers have produced some of their best work when older. The story is subtle.

poetryandwine · 03/10/2023 13:50

PS Since you care about qualifications I am a maths intensive Russell Group STEM academic and DH is an RG Maths professor. What are yours?

Chickenfeed67 · 03/10/2023 14:22

@OlizraWiteomQua you are clearly not comparing like with like. I hope you do not work in academia - your debating skills leave much to be desired.

Sorry for derailing the thread everyone!

TizerorFizz · 03/10/2023 16:31

Just to say that of four super genius DC I know who did maths at Cambridge snd Warwick, not one did MMath. All have jobs using maths and one has a career at another uni in their maths dept.

Teriyakieverything · 03/10/2023 17:21

Debt is written off after 40 years not 30years, rules have just changed since this year.

TizerorFizz · 03/10/2023 19:44

@IKnowNothingAboutTrees The rate paid each month is not dependent on amount borrowed. So your advice to your DS on student “debt” is wrong. He is correct to not engage with you on that. The contribution will be paid over 40 years by many but higher earners should be free of it earlier. You should read MSE for the best explanation of the new loans so you understand how student finance works.

Livinghappy · 03/10/2023 19:59

@IKnowNothingAboutTrees Good luck to your son, has he submitted his UCAS yet? You might want to join the Higher Education board - offers coming in thread.

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