Bsc v masters on ucas

[monkey42]

Does anyone know whether it matters which you apply for in the sciences, since most uni have both options and I presume transition to bsc to masters requires a 2.1 in 2nd year regardless what you put down for ucas? Is 3 v 4 year course binding?
Ds2 is about to put his in application but there is just far too much choice!

He won't be eligible for the Masters loan though if he wanted to do an MSc in a more specialised area so be aware of that.

Thanks Errol and Titchy

Yes, it's a five years integrated masters due to the Scottish system as they have a year less at school than RUK.

I believe he can finish after his BSc. His integrated masters course is called MInf which seems to be quite unusual. I've no idea what makes this different from an MEng or MSci?

Yeah this is an interesting thread but quite worrying! DS1 is heading into third year of a four-year MMath. He's been discussing PhD options with his tutors (at Oxford) and they haven't raised any concerns, so I'm hoping/assuming he hasn't scuppered himself!

Generally a full Masters is MSc, MA, LLM. This shows it to be 180 credits. Integrated masters are 120 credits for the final year - the same as for UG. Hence they are titled differently, MEng, MMath, MSci etc.

In Scotland, an MA (Hons) is an undergraduate Arts degree. An MLitt (Magister Litterarum) is the Masters equivalent.

@Ironoaks Is this Part III at C? That is internationally recognised as outstanding preparation for a PhD.

@poetryandwine yes, it is.
Thank you for your reassurance; he has worked very hard and has been doing well (high 1st in Part II), and it would be a bit gutting to find out that he had received misleading advice.

It will be very course and subject specific. What I said will apply to very lab-based subjects - chemistry/biology etc. Maths, physics, computer science may well be very very different and integrated masters very much suitable for further academic progression in those subjects.

It sounds like it is very uni dependant? DS did an MSci in marine biology and has just started his funded PhD, he's also at the final stages of getting his MSci project published. Maybe the supervisor is also important?

@WhatPostDoc it's experimental physics so your advice is relevant for that. He did an internship / research project in a lab this summer, and will have started his Part III project by the time applications go in, but as pointed out on here, it's not a lot of lab experience. He has done some object oriented programming.

Internships and summer projects will massively help him out. Shows initiative in setting things like this up and is extra experience his peers won't have. Especially good if the internships are in places he'd like to be for PhD as he has that relationship with the prospective supervisor (though this depends on source of funding).

Its all about what people say as equivalents. MRes is a big project, integrated masters may be smaller in comparison, but add on internships, summer projects etc you could say well there's a chunk of that missing experience added on, and potentially more varied.

Though you can do a PhD from a first degree can't you?

In theory yes you can go straight from Bachelors to PhD. Very very rare though, and almost certainly would need to be self funded.

@Ironoaks

Not sure how he will feel about this, but with a high 1st at Part II, now doing Part III, DS is also very well qualified for applications to Group 1 (Russell Group equivalent) Departments in North America. Advantages are that full funding is more generous, routine and generally not project linked, and that there is at least a year of coursework at the beginning of the doctoral programme. Students routinely apply with the BSc and funding is typically guaranteed for 6 yrs.

With his Y3 results I think DS could realistically apply to several unis most would consider highly aspirational and his (informal) insurance choices could still be at a level that would serve him well. Be aware that in America you don’t typically orientate yourself to a particular supervisor until after you have passed your Qualifying Exams, based on that coursework and — although I always caution against complacency — likely (much) easier than Part III. Yet your application must show a fairly sharp focus (which you can change later). A slightly delicate balance

Very dependent on subject, course etc.

I did go straight from BSc to PhD. But I didn't do a standard 3 year BSc. I did a 4 year BSc with a placement year, top uni. I got a placement, worked for a year full-time, submitted a project report for it. I also got paid for it, so I had no fees or maintenance loan that year. Because it was a year full time it was seen as almost equivalent to a Masters when I applied for PhD. An MRes would still be 'best' because of the longer write up, but the placement year I did was very competitive against it compared to integrated masters (and I couldn't have afforded the MRes course fees). But placements were competitively applied for and interviewed like a job, all people on the course in the country could apply (lots of universities offer the placement year course). You were not guaranteed a placement and over 25% of students on my course didn't get one. You apply at the beginning of second year so you really need to have your nose to the grindstone and achieve in first year to stand a chance, the year that doesn't count towards your final degree mark and most people spend having fun!

It was also a decade ago. I've seen many students applying with what I had and losing out to people with an MRes and a years experience working in industry or as a technician. You can do it, especially at the universities which are smaller, not in the capital cities, non-RG. But the big Oxbridge and London training programmes? No chance anymore in my field, I wouldn't even have gotten an interview if I'd been applying now. Still possible in other fields probably.

If you have the means to self fund you can probably do a PhD wherever you like straight from BSc. They'll happily take your money.

@poetryandwine thank you, I will suggest this to him. The internship he did this summer was in Switzerland, so I think he is open to studying outside the UK.

Loads of great info here. I know of quite a few people who went on from a part III integrated masters straight to PhD. For my subject - geology - the MSci was a chance for more subject coverage, and a large chunky project. It was seen as great grounding for a PhD, general scientific or numerical ish roles, etc.

A MSc in my subject area tends to be much more specific - so a MSci will be in general geology, but an MSc would be in hydro geology, oil and gas geology, low carbon energy sector geology, maybe a switch to geophysics or reservoir engineering even, etc. They’re more direct preparation for a specific job sector. I went from MSci to MSc, and then direct into the relevant industry, as I was still figuring out my career path and frankly wanted to just do more geology and keep broadening and learning. Others who knew earlier on what industry they were interested in switched after 3 years and went straight for the relevant MSc rather than doing the MSci.

In the industry we employ direct from BSc (sometimes), MSci or MSc most often and some relevant PhD.

@ironoaks: DS is doing Physics and did an internship in Switzerland this summer??? Is this by chance a subject related internship?

Most intriguing. Is C the only place in the UK that interests him? Because I think he is an extremely desirable candidate almost anywhere.

He should be aware that US applications that include a request for financial aid are due early, sometime around Christmas. However as i said applicants are not expected to write about a thesis topic, just a likely area of specialisation.

Nevermind, @ironoaks, I have now RTFT and see that it was indeed a subject based internship.

Oh yes, a high 1st at C, Part III, a summer project possibly at a certain lab in Switzerland - from a distance, your DS could hardly look stronger. Or you more modest. I hope he has time to apply in the US and possibly at Toronto (I don’t know the details of their SCM if any or Biophysics). But I wonder if there are any other projects in the UK that interest him, because I think he would be a loss to us. Imperial perhaps?

To avoid misunderstanding, DS spent the summer with NCCR Bio-Inspired materials. It is a prestigious internship (only 15 chosen from a global pool of applicants) but there were no particle accelerators involved.

Okay! Still absolutely super. He needs to pursue the best path for his own interests @ironoaks, as he potentially has a very bright future.

The MInf in Edinburgh is an absolute a no brainer.

There is ample room to specialise as there are over 50 modules to choose from in the fifth year. He will also complete an 80-credit thesis as part of the integrated masters.

Your DS will have his choice of funded PhDs if he achieves first class honours in the MInf. However, not many graduates choose to go down the PhD route as the industry options are so much more lucrative.

Thank you @JocelynBurnell.

That's reassuring to hear about the course. Is the 80 credit thesis not typical in the last year of study?

I have no experience of computer science, academics and industry so every day is a school day for me!

Seconding @JocelynBurnell @Aurea And the recent post from @ErrolTheDragon

The only reason to do PhD in CS is if you have an absolute passion for research. Or if you desire a career in HE, which would likely be based on said passion but could also be teaching focused. CS PhDs also have excellent employment opportunities in industry, but the pay bump over the MSc probably does not compensate for the extra investment in their education. It’s a question of whether they find the resulting job opportunities more congenial.

Can somebody clear this up for me? I did a dissertation at undergraduate (obviously) but when I did an MSc, some called it a dissertation and others a thesis.

Which actually is it? To me, a thesis was PhD.