Oxford- Physics how important are GCSE grades

[Cubic]

Hi, ds got his gcse results today. Mixture of 7's, 8's and 9's. I've read on MN that GCSE grades are looked at when applying to Oxford. Is this true and if so will he be at a disadvantage with these grades please? I've read all 9's are necessary or at least that is what I've taken from what I've seen.

@BishyBarnyBee I agree that kids making realistic applications will probably have found maths and everything to do with maths very, very easy at GCSE and will have got 8s or 9s at maths even if their school isn't high achieving.

On GCSE scores - if they start scoring again this year or next year - there's a really important difference between scoring all 8s and 9s, and out-performing your cohort at your school. There's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram but it's not a perfect correlation. Whatever school you went to, they are looking for hard workers and over-performers. If you can show you over-performed your cohort, maths and physics admissions tutors really don't care that you didn't get a 8 or 9 in history or French.

I'm sure DS1's GCSE grade profile (mostly 7s) is unusual for Oxford, but it's not unique. I worried it would mean he had no chance, and I was dead wrong. Thankfully he didn't listen to me!

OP, it does sound like FM is a must though. Is he worried about the pure content? If so he'll be in the same boat as a lot of other applicants for physics and engineering. DS2 hated the pure maths bits of FM, and DS1 (doing maths degree) hated the applied maths bits of FM! Most applicants for maths-based degrees have a strong preference for one or other other, so I guess it evens itself out in the exams.

With a 9 in maths he should do more than fine in FM. It's just maths, FM is not really harder, it's just additional, further topics, it's not about going further into the material to a more difficult level. All the FM content is part of the 'normal' math in the IB, or the 'normal' math in the German Abitur or American High School Diploma. I'm not a maths genius (usually aimed for a C) but did maths at Abitur (everyone has to, like in the IB) and found mechanics and statistics the easiest parts and got, to my amazement, all As in my final Abitur exams.

They are disregarding for the years where national public exams weren't set. So for OP if her son just took them they will be back to scoring gcses too.

It will explain @TizerorFizz observations that many of the top PAT scorers have been educated outside of the UK, as most other countries have no difference between maths and FM. It's just maths, and mechanics and statistics are a very basic part of the normal teaching that everyone has to endure/enjoy (abroad people don't talk much about maths being a special talent. Everyone has to take it, no choice, and usually everyone does cope). The UK makes it sound unnecessarily daunting by giving it that 'Further' prefix and making it an elective choice.

To be fair, a 9 at GCSE isn’t always a predictor of an A star in maths or FM at A level. Many swerve FM too! Possibly wrongly but a 9 doesn’t guarantee top grades. Oxford do say that PAT is the best predictor of success on their course.

I do think we need more scientists to have a broad education if I’m honest.

GCSE’s aren’t as important as you’d expect. DS due to start Oxford this year doing physics. Mixture of 9’s down to a 5. 9’s and 8’s in all sciences and maths/further maths though - but not via actual exams.
The application process is the deciding factor. Get a good score in the PAT, have a good personal statement with what he’s read/done/fascinated by - to do with physics. What he’s learned and wanting to learn. Don’t bother with extra curricular stuff (just a sentence will suffice). If he’s not already on Isaac Physics, get him doing that - and the competitions. Lots of stuff on the website. Get him talking to you about what he’s studying and looking into - if he passes the PAT with a good score he’s going to have 3 interviews at a minimum and yes - they do ask about stuff on your personal statement.
If you’ve got a local university, ask for work experience - doesn’t have to be a top notch Russell Group one. Look up the head of department and see if they’ll let him do stuff there.
Get him to help at 6th form or school (if attached) with study skills in maths and physics - it also is good practise for him speaking and explaining his thought process.
Do all the past PAT papers leading up to the exam, do them chronologically.
There are some good books out there with physics puzzle questions that are “fun” and the interview is pretty much how you approach their set puzzles. They want to see how you respond to getting things wrong, checking, asking questions - they want to know that they can teach and mould you.
My DS enjoys asking questions and explaining things to me and other people, he enjoys sharing knowledge and communicating - I do think this has helped him a lot. He’s not privately educated, we live up north and is the first to go to uni. But he’s always been interested in everything around him.
Good luck to your DS, feel free to ask any questions.

Oh, and if the 6th form offers FM then do it, it does help and the workload isn’t as bad as you’d think. Lots of cross over stuff with physics and maths A level - and that base knowledge is important.

FM expected. If his school doesn’t offer FM he can do it externally

@OnePlusOneEquals thank you for all that information and advice. I read your post to my son. He has now said he will take FM, he was thinking about taking it anyway. So four A-levels.

He has also looked up Isaac physics, he hadn't heard of it before. Your son sounds very similar to mine.

3 of ds GCSE grades were one mark below the grade boundary. His teachers have suggested which papers to get looked at by the exam board (only requesting for two) so hopefully that'll look better as it'll turn an 8 to a 9 and a 7 to an 8.

Thank you to.all the other posters too for your insights and advice.

Good luck to your son @Cubic, feel free to ask questions anytime. My DS says that he did all the hard work and stress by January Year 13. Once he’d received his offer (A* AA) he felt that the pressure had been released a bit on him. His friends seeking similar courses still had to navigate getting 2 or 3 A stars and also the STEP. Strange as it sounds, the Oxford application has felt pretty straightforward and condensed in some ways. All the hard work is done by Christmas, they’ve sifted through the vast majority of the applicants and if you’re lucky enough to get an offer then you’re pretty much set. Not like Cambridge where a lot of students still face a risk of not scoring high enough in the STEP.
I hope the review of his papers works out well for him and that he enjoys 6th form.

This has been a very useful and interesting thread.

DD is planning to do a Humanities plus Maths and Physics. She's also doing an EPQ (they have to choose FM or an EPQ basically).

Long story short, she would like to do Engineering and Physics (likely) at uni, and so wonders whether choosing FM would actually be better.

The only reason she didn't pick FM is because she didn't do the Additional Maths when offered. This was because she did not engage as well during online learning (and us parents, unusually but due to our jobs, were actually around very little - so complete opposite to most of the parents at her school), so DD dropped a set in maths and so lost her confidence. DD was top of that set and was given the odd extension task but the teacher there was clearly not aiming for 9s for class so didn't bother explaining certain topics in depth even though DD has been predicted a 9 for ages. She had 3 sessions with an outside tutor (who noticed the gaps in teaching and quickly got DD up to speed) and DD got 8 above the grade boundary.

DD is now thinking whether she should switch to FM but is worried that it's only the super geeks/geniuses who manage to get an A* in maths when it's taken early in Y12, with FM in Y13. The problem is that if she finds she can't cope with the pace, there is no option of switching back to the 'normal' maths.

For context, DD achieved 4 x 9s and 4 x 8s, 2 x7s at iGCSE with 9s in Maths/Physics (20 above boundary)/Eng Lit and History. 8s in Biology/Chemistry.

Advice gratefully received.

FM is definitely advisable if she wants to go to one of the most competitive engineering/physics unis @happyhippiehippo.

Sounds like her confidence was knocked? My younger son 'only' got an 8 in GCSE maths (TAGs in 2021) and wasn't invited to join the GCSE additional maths stream despite lobbying the teacher - I still remember his little disappointed face He has absolutely aced everything maths-based since then, including Oxford's PAT and A Levels.

Looking back, his GCSE maths teacher (who was a nice guy and a good teacher) just seems to have slightly misjudged him, possibly because he's a gregarious, sporty type and not your 'typical' mathmo. It happens, maths teachers (like the rest of us) don't always have perfect judgement.

It would be a shame for misplaced self-doubt to cause her to choose A Levels that will limit her realistic UCAS options for engineering or physics, especially when the evidence shows that it's often girls who drop maths at this stage. I think @noblegiraffe has a table showing correlation between 9s at GCSE and A stars at A level in maths, and the relationship is very strong!

9s at GCSE is a solid indicator that your daughter will be fine. She obviously has the ability - I think the question she should ask herself is whether she'd be happy enough to do nothing but maths, effectively, for the next two years.

@happyhippiehippo do they do maths in year 12 and further in year 13? All places are different, my DS did both over 2 years and sat all 4 A levels this year at the end of year 13. At our 6th form you choose 4 x A levels at the start of year 12 and then drop one at some point in the first year. Unless you’re taking FM, then you start with 5 and then drop to 4. But as DS says, it all connects and helps with the other subjects. Maths/FM/physics they all benefit each other.
So she’d have to start with FM and maths and not get the option to drop back at all? To be fair, a few who started FM with DS did drop out to just Maths after a few weeks as they ended up with only 2 free periods a week and it is a big step up. But it is useful and would help, but I’m not sure about engineering and their requirements. Does she know which unis she’s interested in? What do their requirements list? I would have a good look and see if it would benefit her or not at the places she’s considering applying for in year 13 and take it from there.

I’ve heard that Oxford considers your GCSE grades in relation to the other grades that year at your school, so effectively a class rank. At the sane time, I’ve heard that Oxford considers 8s and 9s as interchangeable.

I wonder, how does this work in practice for children coming from highly selective schools where 85% of the grades achieved will be 8s or 9s?

It does not seem to affect the state grammars. Mainly has affected the private schools. So one assumes weighting favours state schools.

Is this because there are effectively two separate “pots” or “pools”? Private schools now have a cap (i.e. target number) and so, students from private schools are now competing only with other students from private schools for a set number if places? While grammar students compete in a wider pool of all state funded schools?

STEP is gruelling but only taken by Cambridge Maths offer holders not those applying for / holding an offer for Natural Sciences (physics)

@alexisccd yes, that’s correct. Sorry, should have specified that DS had been looking at Maths with Physics and that required STEP.

@Margrethe I honestly don’t know. I suggest you ask on an Oxbridge thread. I’m sure someone will know. I’m not sure it works like that but with a clear remit to reduce privately educated Dc they must have mechanisms for choosing state children.

I don't think Oxford has that detailed information, but they usually take your position in school as one factor amongst others. For Ivy League (or all US unis), every school leavers certificate has their exact ranking within their class, and Ivy league will look for 'top of class', whether that is top of a class where the majority had 15 APs and ACTs of 30plus, or a tiny rural school that didn't offer any APs and hardly anyone would go to university. The idea is that 'fair' means that they take that 1 person, or 5% of people, that made the best out of whatever opportunities their school offered. English universities become more like Americans.

Thanks that's helpful. Yes, DD confidence is definitely knocked and not helped by the fact that the kids that did end up doing Add Maths for GCSEs are definitely amazing at maths, this is a highly selective school.

They do run it so that the A-level is completed in Y12, then FM in Y13. So not sure how easy it is to get an A/A* in Maths if you only have one year to do it in? I guess you don't have to have an A etc in FM (though I'm sure it helps) as long as the other two subjects are graded high?

She did get a 9 (although in Edexcel iGCSE but a good 10 marks over) and 9 in Physics (20 over) and 8 in the other sciences....if it helps for context.

They do run it so that the A-level is completed in Y12, then FM in Y13. So not sure how easy it is to get an A/A in Maths if you only have one year to do it in? *

Could she definitely not do the first year, see how it goes and then if necessary decide not to take the exam in Y12, drop FM and take maths in Y13? Surely there must be DC who do this every year, lots struggle with the step up to maths A level, even those with 8/9 at GCSE.

Speaking from DD's experience, Y12 of A level maths is pretty similar to GCSE additional maths. I imagine that doing A level maths in a year would be quite a lot harder without that extra GCSE, because there would be a lot more new material. At DD's school they weren't allowed to do A level maths without GCSE add maths, and certainly not FM. (They also taught them consecutively, taking the A level in Y12 and FM in Y13.)