DC missed Uni offer (IB)

[UcasShmoocas]

Posted on Chat as well but someone suggested I try here, too. Any advice welcome!

DC received IB results and missed uni offer for Law by two points (both in HL, very unfortunately - predicted 6-7 and 6 and got 5 in both 😞). Big shock and totally unexpected.
DC contacted admissions but got through to 'enquiries'. They said the uni (Bristol) would make a decision but probably not until around the 17 August.
Should DC write a letter to admissions? Or just leave it be? They don't want to go to their insurance so if Bristol says no it will be retakes and a gap year...
I'm feeling quite helpless. Most of DC's year group are disappointed with their IB marks and many have called short of their predictions...
DC has 37 overall, 16 in HL.
31 in LNAT.
Offer was 38 but 18 in HL which all teachers thought was 100% achievable.
I'm thinking they will definitely not firm her offer. 😞

Ultimately, a lot of it will all come down to the grades of other students with offers- if Bristol's course is "full" with people who've met the entry requirements, then unfortunately, your child won't get a place. If there are spaces left after everyone who met their offer was given a place, then they have a chance. They are quite close anyway, and have a strong LNAT, so it's very likely they'll be near the top of the list to be offered places. Every year it's very normal for lots of students who just missed out to be given offers, so there is still a good chance of getting a place.

It's very hard to predict how A-level results will go this year- on the one hand, we've been told that similar proportions of students will get each grade compared to 2019. On the other hand, these students have mostly never taken formal exams before, and where I work we are really worried about our current Y13- it's very likely a lot will miss their predicted grades.

If you're getting a remark, then do contact the uni to inform them of this- they then have to hold the place until 31st August, to give you a chance to achieve the offer.

As others have said, do check university policies on retakes before committing to this- some unis won't necessarily accept them without extenuating circumstances.

Like other academics on this thread (and I'm an ex-Admissions tutor) your DD really has to sit tight. I would not advise pinning any hopes on an email directed to the Bristol Law Admissions tutor.

In his/her place, I would answer (if I weren't on holiday & if I could get my nose over all the essential emails I needed to answer about essential business) to the effect that no decisions about borderline applications, or applications which don't meet the offer, can be made until A Level results are forwarded to the university. And that's all I could say.

We are regulated for fair and transparent admissions policies & practices. To offer your DD a place under the current circumstances would contravene policies of fairness and transparency. Just because IB results are published before A Level results should not give anyone an advantage.

I'd advise that it's a waste of time and mental energy. It might be a good lesson to both you & your DD in resilience. This won't be the last time that she faces this sort of situation - some tools to cope eg developing a Plan B, etc etc. are going to be more useful than special pleading, which cannot have an effect.

I don’t mean to imply that an Admissions Tutor can or should make promises: it would be wrong to do so. However this LNAT mark is likely what’s kept the application alive. A brief expression of interest together with a mention of any documentable mit circs won’t hurt.

My experience was always that such emails began right after exams anyway. My School doesn’t use additional assessments but if we did someone who excelled to this extent on such would be someone I would be thinking long and hard about. I would reply them that (if we had places in Aug) it was going to be a tough decision and they should think about their options with that knowledge. (Using carefully vetted language) Keeping channels open like this is different to special pleading having an effect.

together with a mention of any documentable mit circs won’t hurt.

But I've read @UcasShmoocas 's posts, and can't see any mention of mitigating circumstances, @poetryandwine ?

All your points about the application being close and 'live' are cogent. But it's still likely to be the case that standard practice in Admissions is followed: decisions on borderline cases will be made once A Level results are released to the universities.

There’s still the huge issue of IB students being able to plead first!! That’s surely unfair. No pleading until all exam results are in should be standard. What if 20 A level candidates also have a high LNAT? Bristol is highly favoured after Oxbridge for Law. It’s very likely other well qualified candidates will be waiting in the wings. Surely they must have equal consideration? Unis talk about equal consideration but do they all practice it? I’m beginning to wonder!!

Life's not fair @TizerorFizz - the earlier people start to realise that the better

we absolutely practice it. We would not look at or consider any letters as suggested above. IB students can send letters to their hearts content - it won’t make a difference.

letting unis know about mitigating circumstances is different and there’s usually a process to do so, along with criteria and guidance for what the impact might be. It would all be published or available.

this student will be considered following results Saturday, and no letter will change that.

Haven't read the full thread. But is it worth asking for a re-mark?

A number of IB students in DS's school got lower grades than expected, and I know the school was discussing the possibility of re-marks with them.

@Bunnyannesummers I did see you didn’t look at such communications but others have implied they would and @lastdayatschool you are implying that gaining advantage in this way is fair. Or worse, to be expected!

When a uni has limited places to offer, and maybe none, why do you think A level students with equally high LNAT scores should be left to fight over fewer places because IB students have already nabbed them? It’s also possible that IB students are privately educated. I’m not against any of that but it’s important all receive equal consideration for a limited number of places. Plus Bristol is vey kern on its contextual offers - so what about them? Are they equally considered in the “life’s nit fair” scenario? If not, why have these offers at all?

Whilst life is certainly far from fair universities should be giving equal consideration and not favouring IB applicants (who are largely privately educated so already somewhat privileged).

No @TizerorFizz, saying "Life's not fair" is not implying the practice is fair.

I'm a stickler for rules, laws, processes, and procedures.

However, if an institution (or group of institutions) do not have explicitly defined rules/processes that all have to adhere to, then some people will try and gain a competitive advantage - some times it benefits them, other times not.

It's just a fact of life and as soon as our young people realise it, the better they are prepared for life.

@TizerorFizz it would be highly unlikely and unethical for a university offer a place to an applicant with dropped grades before A Level results are released, especially on a course like Law which would usually be highly oversubscribed.
We would equate 5,5 in IB as equivalent to B,B in A Levels so the drop of 2 points is quite significant. I’d highly recommend a remark, if @UcasShmoocas dc is only a few points from the grade boundaries for a 6.
I can assure you at the University I work at, a high ranked Russell Group Uni, we would not be swayed by a letter and even with significant Mit Circs, we still wouldn’t give anyone a place with dropped grade until we had all results.

We’ve had applicants from overseas flying to the UK trying to demand face appointments to plead their cases and applications turning up at Reception with parents, who’ve travelled significant distances requesting meetings. We categorically refuse to meet with them as this would not be fair.

Surely they must have equal consideration? Unis talk about equal consideration but do they all practice it? I’m beginning to wonder!!

Of course we do, @TizerorFizz We all have a public duty (there's a law about it: ) to act in a transparent & equitable way.

Or do you think that all the academics posting on this thread saying exactly that - that the university will wait until A Level results are released to them before making decisions about borderline candidates, are making it up?

I'm just baffled @TizerorFizz about where in this thread, you get the idea that a university might be swayed by the sort of letter the OP is contemplating?

And where you get the idea that we might act in an unfair or untransparent manner on this?

We’ve had applicants from overseas flying to the UK trying to demand face appointments to plead their cases and applications turning up at Reception with parents, who’ve travelled significant distances requesting meetings. We categorically refuse to meet with them as this would not be fair.

I have this, too (medicine). I will talk to them, but only to advise them on what their options are for alternative degrees, reapplying or studying abroad. The difficulty there is I can only tell them what their options are: I can't tell them which is/are likely to work for them and I certainly won't recommend any particular option.

@TizerorFizz only seems to me to be saying that IB pupils have results to work with sooner, and and that is advantageous. She is correct, but I don’t see how to avoid this as IB must be sat simultaneously worldwide. This also applies to Clearing.

However no one is much swayed by pleadings and for the record I never acted on them either, nor would I in the future, until every meritorious and contextual criterion had been applied. My interest in this case is driven by the ability shown by the LNAT score. I very much doubt that Bristol has 20 applicants, or even 10, with scores over 30 who are not making their offers. I don’t care enough to investigate but I am happy to be proved wrong. I think the LNAT is why Bristol is keeping this DC in the pool. The DC clearly has excellent potential.

Someone will be the last student admitted to any cohort that has a wait list. When you have ranked your list from here to Sunday every which way and you have three equal applicants for the final two places, it does help to know that one of them is highly enthusiastic; very enthusiastic students often bring, and give, more of themselves. Etc. At this granular level perhaps things are not 100% fair, but the alternative is a crap shoot. This is why i think a brief letter is a reasonable idea.

I don't believe the IB issue is as big as people think it might be.. there are something in the region of 90,000 who get the IB diploma (not certificate or courses) worldwide, and 25% of them (not 15 as I said earlier. .. sorry), get 37 and above which is asked for alongside AAA or above. 4,000 of those students are in the UK. Approximately 260,000 students take A levels and 28% of those get AAA or above.

And based on the experience of my son's year, those that missed their offer based on IB grades, did not receive a decision until after the A level results, unless they had a remark and this was sufficient to bring them back to their offer level. This is a potential advantage to IB students as they receive their remark before A level results day whereas it is conceivable that an A level student could receive recount results (I understand that A levels are not remarked but results recounted) after all of the places have been filled.

IB pupils have results to work with sooner, and and that is advantageous.

This is also true for students sitting Scottish Highers/Advanced Highers, although they don't get their results quite as early as IB students.

When you have ranked your list from here to Sunday every which way and you have three equal applicants for the final two places, it does help to know that one of them is highly enthusiastic; very enthusiastic students often bring, and give, more of themselves.

In my experience (20 years involved in admissions alongside teaching students), there is no positive correlation whatsoever between the enthusiasm a student expresses prior to admission and the enthusiasm they exhibit when they're actually on the course. In fact, I'd say the ones who make the most noise pre-entry about how motivated they are are the ones who are most likely not to do any work when they arrive.

I am in STEM, @NoNotHimTheOtherOne and our field famously attracts the emotionally restrained. I would be wary of anyone going over the top but otherwise stand by what I said (I an also an academic).

Of course Scottish results are another example.

All these are amongst the reasons I favour post qualifications applications (which are feasible at the expense of a revamp neither the secondary nor HE sectors wish to undertake). Much fairer

Don't many, if not most, clearing places only become available after A-level results anyway? Only about 5000 students take the IB in the UK anyway so I can't imagine there are a huge number who have failed to make the grades for both their firm and insurance offer looking for clearing places. Surely it would be a gamble to accept a place through clearing now when other places might be available after A-level results.

I'm not sure it is such a huge advantage getting results early. Universities can't offer places for dropped grades until they have everyone's results. You can't usually book accommodation for insurance or clearing places until A-level results are out. I suppose remarks will come back sooner for IB students.

The key advantage of getting results early is that you can spend more time researching clearing options if you know it's certain/highly probably you're going into Clearing.

I've been encouraging my DS to research some options, in case he doesn't get into his firm on results day; but it's a long way down his list of priorities

@poetryandwine Indeed that was what I was saying.

So many people earlier on the thread had urged the DD to write and had found this had worked for DC in that they obtained a place prior to A level results being known. There was wide agreement that it was worth a go. It was me who questioned fairness pages back: against the grain. I’m glad most academics now agree with my view. I would query though if it should be made very clear about not contacting the uni between results and acceptance. The fact letters snd pleading are not going to be taken into account at any stage (unless specific criteria are met) should be communicated to students and parents. It seemed earlier on the thread it was recommended that people write immediately to push their case.

Obviously we don’t know what the LNAT scores are for other offer holders but very bright people do this degree and many could have gone to Oxford or Cambridge with a fair wind.

Also, there is the essay score too. The multiple choice is one element of two. The Oxford median is 28.25 in the multiple choice for successful candidates. For some colleges it is higher.

@TizerorFizz I think the academics on this thread have always largely agreed with you. Parents and DC who think that contacting a unit of admission has been a key factor in DC’s admission (absent mitigating circumstances) are very likely deluding themselves except in the rare cases I described in my previous post. But you may always end up being one of those! Even there, where I respond positively other admissions tutors and PPs respond negatively so the effect is unclear.

On the whole when things go well people like to believe their actions were the cause. I think this is a well known psychological phenomenon.

If this DC is admitted it will be the LNAT that carried the day. The nation’s top Law Faculties have determined that this test is a good indicator of talent for the profession and Bristol’s admissions criteria are transparent so I see nothing wrong with that.