Economics or Physics A level for best degree options

[MadamBuxton]

I’d be interested in getting views on this because there are probably factors I haven’t thought of…

My DS has just sat his GCSEs and needs to finalise his A level choices. He had decided on Maths, Economics and Biology but is having second thoughts.

Maths is definite as it’s his best subject, he likes it and is a good facilitator for lots of degrees. He is a good all-rounder and got 8/9 in all his mocks but generally prefers sciences and isn’t keen on arts subjects. His thinking with Econ/Bio is keeping things broad and Biology is probably his favourite science subject. He has taken economics GCSE and enjoyed it.

He mentioned recently that one of the main reasons for choosing economics A level is because he might want to go the finance/business/accountancy route for a degree and career. When I pointed out to him that I don’t think there are any degrees where economics a level is essential (even an economics degree although I don’t know if it would be wise to go into it ‘blind’) he was surprised and started wondering about doing physics instead.

Ultimately he should probably do whichever subject he will enjoy most and do best at but without a crystal ball what would others’ thought process be?

“ He was predicted A*s at A level, so was looking at Uni courses requiring straight A's, which discounted most business, economics, accounting, where the entry requirements were usually a step lower, and he wanted the "best" …”

this is no longer accurate as Economics degrees are now extremely competitive. Many of DSs friends with a string of Astar and A predictions got no offers at all last year.

I think @user1497207191 has an idea def worth exploring! One such degree is Mathematics with Financial Mathematics. There are similar ones, I think. Then of course there is Actuarial Science itself, but IMO that is a bit narrower. However actuaries are consistently amongst the happiest professionals in the world.

@PerpetualOptimist has a good point about bringing an essay based subject into the mix as a point in favour of Economics.

FWIW, Economics itself as a degree programme is now fiercely competitive. The top mathematically orientated programmes — and Cambridge is at the apex — require or all but require FM. But less competitive ones, including Russell Group, do not.

I’m wondering how strong the love for Biology is? If FM is begun as a fourth subject, Biology is the outlier, in that (a) Maths-FM-Physics is challenging but self reinforcing, with Bio out on a limb, or (b) Math-FM-Econ is probably easier and again all analytical, again Bio is the outlier.

I would never advise swapping out a beloved subject. If Bio is not a beloved choice, DS should ask himself why he wants to compete against all the medics.

Good luck with thinking through FM and the question of 3 vs 4 ALs. Is there a teacher DS could talk with about this?

Thanks for all your messages everyone - some really good food for thought. I think I’ll sit down with him and identify some degree courses that might be of interest then work backwards to see which A levels fit best. It’s really tough for kids who don’t have a specific career in mind to map it all out aged 16 and make sure they don’t block themselves off from something they might like.

Yep, play the game is right. Work backwards from where you need to be and take the "path of least resistance", i.e. the simplest path to get there! That can mean taking simpler subjects (what you find simple) sometimes.

Work smarter not harder. Different "aims" require different "means" to get there.

Obviously harder to chose if other factors are in play, i.e. you don't know what kind of career you want, when you may have to choose a broad range of A levels to leave choices/options open, perhaps at the expense of grades. But life is all about choices and decisions.

I agree with Biology - DS was strongly advised by his school not to do it at A level unless he was aiming for a degree/career requiring it due to it being a difficult A level and the ultra-competitive nature of kids needing As for medical school, and that advice was given after he got his grade 9 at GCSE! So many needing A meant they worked harder to get it, so pushing the others down through the grades with the way the grading system works, so they have to live and breathe biology to get the A*, which only the truly motivated ones will do.

Yes I agree Biology seems like the outlier but it’s the science he has enjoyed most. I wouldn’t say it’s his passion but he’s not the type to be passionate about any subject really. I was the same - enjoyed most things to a point, did a physics degree and was surrounded by people who loved the subject whereas for me it was a means to an end. I’ll talk to him to try to drill into his thought process a bit more.

Yes it's very hard. What helped our DS was that we'd taken him to a couple of local Uni open days a year early, his GCSE summer, between finishing the GCSEs and getting the results/having to finalise A level choices, so things were a little clearer for him after he'd been to a few Uni subject talks which also motivated him to look at Uni websites to see the range of courses/subjects available.

Perhaps that's something you could look into this Summer - quite a few Unis do open days during the first couple of weeks of July, so there may still be time to find one or two locally you could get to.

Is the fierce competition for Economics degrees a new thing? My DS1 is doing it a Russell Group and got offers from everywhere he applied - he was Covid year so didn’t sit A levels and I can’t fully recall his predicted grades but they included one A* at most.

@MadamBuxton

Yes I agree Biology seems like the outlier but it’s the science he has enjoyed most. I wouldn’t say it’s his passion but he’s not the type to be passionate about any subject really. I was the same - enjoyed most things to a point, did a physics degree and was surrounded by people who loved the subject whereas for me it was a means to an end. I’ll talk to him to try to drill into his thought process a bit more.

Very sadly, I don't think that doing a very hard A level like Biology without needing it for their chosen degree/career is a good decision. In a perfect World, kids should study the subjects they like and are interested in, but competition for good Unis/Degrees is fierce and competition for the best jobs is fiercer still, so, very sadly, he needs to work backwards from potential careers.

From what the Biology teacher told my DS, the A level is very different from the GCSE and is unlikely to be something they would enjoy unless they really lived and breathed the subject. My son thoroughly enjoyed GCSE biology, but didn't like the sound of the A level at all!

Funny what you say about your experience with Physics. My son said the same about his financial maths degree - he was often surrounded by those who loved Maths, loved exploring theoretical maths concepts, etc., but it left him cold - he just did what he had to do to get the degree!

I'm prepared to be flamed for this, but from my very limited knowledge/experience, economics does have a reputation for being an "easier" degree that opens doors for good jobs. I think it may have that "easy" reputation because you don't need to have done GCSE to do it at A level and you don't need an A level in it to do it at Uni. Yet, employment statistics show Economics is good degree to have for good career prospects.

All that makes it a very popular degree choice for students, which in turn makes it highly competitive, simply because course numbers are limited - basic supply and demand economics ironically!

It's also a "mixed skill" type of course, i.e. Maths (logic) mixed with Humanity (cause/consequence, human nature) mixed with Literacy (essay/report writing etc)., which is probably why employers like it. A broad range of skills rather than a concentration of just one skill set (such as maths would be).

Without physics many courses aren't available if he's still unsure about a level. Biology would benefit for physics or chemistry

But what if he LIKES Economics better?

I’ve always been perplexed at the idea of actively pushing A level subjects on to students who don’t want to do them.
What happens in practice is that they very often end up doing poorly, or they want to swap subjects.

OP- stick to your guns and let your child do the subjects they like. Math, Bio and Econ opens up a large number of opportunities.

Yes I think last year was insane for the first time. The top unis you need mostly A* now, and even then prepare for one out of 5 offers, if any.

DSs friend who has AAA in hand was just rejected from a uni who advertise AAA as entry requirement.

Well, depending on how Biology is resolved , the DS could do both Physics and Economics. I liked Physics in this situation mainly because it opens so many doors. But if DS homes in on something like Financial Maths, the point becomes moot.

Economics is fiercely competitive mostly at Cambridge, LSE, Warwick, UCL and now Imperial (where I forget at the moment what the new-ish programme is called). These are intensely mathematical programmes. This board last year and possibly the year before was full of tales of DC with PGs of 4
A stars and great supracurriculars who were shut out of these five. Otherwise Economics is competitive but not to this degree! (The Joint Hons programmes at Oxford are exceptions, of course)

The lower offers for these courses are offset by their popularity amongst international applicants, to the extent that many universities make offers in the ratio of 2:1 or higher to international applicants, e.g. Durham and Edinburgh

My ds studied accounting and finance at Warwick. He took the IB and his highest were maths, biology and chemistry and started the course never having studied economics. Most of his cohort had a level economics/ business but ds soon caught up.

Isn't that inevitable with more and more students getting A*'s?

The minimum entry requirements are just that - minimum.

If they are inundated with applicants with higher than minimum grades, they may well screen out all those with lower grades en-bloc, just to get the numbers down. They can't individually evaluate every application if they're getting several hundred (or thousands) for each course. I've certainly heard of specific courses where places have been very limited, i.e. to 20 or so, where there were several hundred applicants.

Isn't it just what's happened with employers/recruiters who decide a degree is a minimum requirement, even for jobs that don't require degrees? It's just a crude way of reducing the number of applicants down to manageable levels.

Unis and employers have to find ways of selecting. It's arguable that qualifications isn't the best way of doing it, but it's a quick and simple way of getting the numbers down.

It's a shame Uni's aren't more honest and realistic though. Most will know that A*s are the likely cut off point, so really should state that in their prospectus etc so students don't waste their time and option choices.

What is good is that we noticed a few Uni web sites showing the typical acceptance grade for their courses, which gives you a better idea of the kinds of grade that will secure a place, rather than their "minimum entry requirement".

@user1497207191 re It's a shame Uni's aren't more honest and realistic though

The same could also be said of the schools that allocate inflated predicted grades to their pupils.

I studied A levels in maths, physics and economics and have a career in accountancy. With the benefit of hindsight I would have switched physics for history. Our strongest candidates have great literacy and communication skills. The exams for all 3 accountancy bodies place huge emphasis on this.

My DD has just completed her PPE degree at Oxford. She hadn't studied economics, philosophy or politics at A level though, taking maths, history and English language instead.

@MadamBuxton Reading what you say, he is thinking about biology because it’s his best science. However he doesn’t seem to know what he might do with it. Therefore I would question its value. I’m with others re physics. More doors kept open I think. But does he like physics enough?

Regsrding economics: so many Dc on MN aspire to LSE and Cambridge for economics. In the real world, of course young people can access economics degrees without FM. Lancaster offers an economics degree without maths at all. Bristol do a huge range of Economics degrees with another discipline. No FM required. However if it’s offered, it’s good to take it IF you can get an A in it.

It’s also perfectly possible to do 3 A levels to include FM and M and do a maths degree. A 4th A level is not needed. A neighbours DC did maths at Exeter with this combo. However DS needs to consider what he might drop to facilitate this. For me, biology. He would then still have access to any economics or management or finance course. Or maths with etc. Or maths!

Yep I know all this - was in response to the OP query about whether Econ had got more competitive

Well regarded economics courses has been competitive for a long time. (Pre Brexit extremely bright kids from newer EU countries, who had home student status and could access full student loans, would head for LSE as a valuable stepping stone to a well paid international banking career, along with the scions of Parisian banking families.) There are a lot of threads on this board, but to repeat our experience a decade ago which was of DS, despite taking 5 A level, with 4xA* predictions including FM, received rejections from Warwick, Cambridge and UCL but luckily a deadline day offer from LSE.

I would suggest that you go on Amazon and pick up a number of popular economics books Freakonomics etc. If he finds them interesting then good. However not everyone enjoys economics.

Economics is a broad church. He should look closely at different courses. As poetryandwine says some courses are notoriously mathematical, but have the advantage of opening doors to well paid analytical/quantitative jobs. If this is the route he might want to take, he really should consider FM as a third, though ideally (given the competition) as a fourth. If he wants something, say, more management oriented, economics, maths and biology should be fine.

Taking FM also gives him more scope if he were to look for degrees in Maths or biology. (Plenty of data in some biology degrees.) If your son is good at maths he may well find maths becomes more interesting at A level and that FM is not that much extra work. (Though maths A level, if you don’t find it easy is very tough indeed.)

I think he should do physics and further maths as well - at least to end of lower sixth. Economics (unlike physics) is not a traditional facilitating subject but very highly regarded. Some of my children (now lawyers) did economics and liked it, but most of them were combining it with A levels like history and geography not sciences or maths.

Some points to consider:

There is a fair bit of cross over between maths and physics , making it an easier combo (may be true of economics).

Lots go from having a physics degree to a career in finance.

Chemistry is a good a level combination with Biology.

Economics has become fiercely competitive, if you look at applicants per place, I think partly as it's seen as a route into finance.

But it's not obligatory to do economics, I went into accountancy and investment banking afterwards with a Geography degree. One of the grads had an English degree, another engineering and quite a few studied law. They wanted to see academic excellence and didn't really care about the degree (although there was some university bias).

I think maths A level is a good option to show numeracy but there was no overlap between my economics A level and skills I needed for accountancy/investment banking which are very job-specific.

Sheffield is advertising economics degree places for Sept 23. Not everywhere is ludicrously competitive. You can also find people on mn looking at 3-4 unis which are ludicrously competitive for economics. Others are not so competitive and students don’t have A stars in 4 subjects. Sheffield want AAB. So you don’t need to be stellar to go there.