Does anyone know much about the MAT entrance exam for Maths at Imperial & Oxford?

[FancyDan]

We went to the open day at Imperial today as my son wants to study maths there.
He also wants to apply to Cambridge so has to apply by the 15th October.
If applying by this date the MAT exam is compulsory at Imperial (if you're applying later the STEP exam can be used).
My son wasn't aware of this and is now worried that he'll have to study for the MAT & STEP exams as well as his A level subjects.

The person we spoke to at Imperial said that the exam was a combination of the Maths and Further Maths that students would have studied in year 12 but my son doesn't start further maths until September!
Will he be disadvantaged by this or will everyone be in the same boat?

If you have the predicted A level grades, do they use the result of this to decide who to invite to interview or do you just need to meet a particular percentage to pass?

Why is it so complicated!

Joining as DD2 has a future plan to apply for a maths degree ( going into year 12 in September) and the information on this thread is so useful. Having just been through the dark art that is applying for medicine with DD1, I had naively presumed doing maths at uni would largely be a case of doing well at A level . Then I had a bit of a poke about and the whole MAT /STEP thing came to light. Thank you very much to posters who have taken the time to explain it so clearly. I suppose the upside is that if it turns out she doesn’t enjoy the prep she will need to do for these exams then maths isn’t the right choice!

Haven't RTFT but if I am understanding this correctly, he will do STEP for Cambridge, would have to do MAT if he applies early for Imperial, but could use his STEP results for Imperial if he applied later? And he is concerned about having to do both?

If that's all true, I would apply for Cambridge and then add Imperial to his application later on.

The only reason not to do that is if he thinks that he will do better at MAT and doesn't want to rely on STEP for Imperial if he doesn't have to.

@Cathpot I am glad you’ve learnt something but I hope we haven’t made it too grim! However STEP has a gender issue worth mentioning. Sorry this is rushed.

Many very fine maths programmes don’t require FM, but it is a good bridge between A levels and university maths. If your DD is interested in it, I would certainly encourage her to pursue it.

STEP is a trickier question. We haven’t yet discussed that Cambridge has a serious gender gap in UG maths(or did very recently; I am quite rushed at the moment but gender statistics are online) with around 25% female whereas most Russell Group Schools of Maths UG populations are much closer to 50% female.

One reasonable conjecture is that young women are more put off by STEP than young men are. Another is that they don’t do as well. I would not infer from this, if it is even true, that female applicants are less able. It is impossible to separate out their ability from their STEP preparation, their ‘mathematical socialisation’, their reactions to the pressures of a brutal exam, etc. We just don’t know what is behind the Cambridge gender gap.

@OhYouBadBadKitten has a DD who succeeded very well at Cambridge and @Pallando does Mathematics Outreach, including STEP outreach, there. They may have some insights.

Most applicants find the MAT more tractable.

Again, there are loads of wonderful maths degree programmes not requiring either. Best wishes to your DD

"Not all sixth forms offer further maths so universities cannot require it"
Where'd you get that idea? Several are very clear that they DO require it. Others say on paper that it's not a firm requirement but don't actually admit anyone without it.

"I had naively presumed doing maths at uni would largely be a case of doing well at A level . Then I had a bit of a poke about and the whole MAT /STEP thing came to light"
MAT/STEP are mainly required for Cambridge, Oxford Warwick or Imperial. A few others say a conditional offer may involve a STEP AEA or TMUA condition or alternative offer, e.g. they will take an A rather than a A-star in further maths if you get a certain grade on MAT or STEP. You can still get into a maths degree at many good unis without MAT/STEP.

"If that's all true, I would apply for Cambridge and then add Imperial to his application later on."
that could backfire. Without MAT he might not get shortlisted. And STEP is a higher bar to clear than MAT.

"Does anyone know how many UK students are admitted each year to Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial?"
class sizes at the bigger schools tend to be 220-250 with a bit of fluctuation from year to year, and depending on who you include (e.g. maths with physics). Imperial is also 60% overseas. oxford and cambridge nearer 30%
so for number of places for UK students you could expect as ballpark figures:
Imperial : 100
Cambridge 160
Oxford 150

re: numbers of places for UK students.
having checked the admissions stats, my estimates for Imperial and Cambridge are supported by the data, but UK-domiciled acceptances to Oxford are slightly lower at 135 (in total for maths, maths with stats and maths with comp sci). or around 115 excluding the joint comp sci students.

It is possible to get into a good uni for maths without MAT/STEP and without further maths. e.g. Bristol, Manchester. Only the 4 most selective (COWI) require MAT/STEP and FM; UCL & Durham require FM and Bath & Kings ask for at least AS FM. For all (?) others FM may be "preferred" but is not a necessity.

It appears that TMUA will be discontinued from 2024 so that's one less to worry about for anyone applying after then.

@poetryandwine
That’s interesting about the gender gap. DD is taking further maths which hopefully should help. The 6th from college she is going to follows the model of doing maths in year 12 and FM in year 13 all being well. Her other A levels are not maths related at all - just things she enjoys (English / Classics) , do other A level subjects have an impact in applications?

Great question, @Cathpot . DH is a maths professor at a Russell Group university just below the COWI (Cambridge/Oxford/Warwick/Imperial) level. His School has no gender gap and also the answer to your question about subjects is No.

They also don’t require or particularly recommend FM but the large majority of Single Hons students have it, so for better or worse the Single Hons Y1 curriculum, whilst not assuming FM, covers this material very quickly. I mention this to illustrate that they are not completely transparent. But prejudicing certain AL exams without publicity is considerably more serious and his School certainly does not do this.

However speaking as a former (RG STEM) admissions tutor, the vast majority of us really want to be helpful. For avoidance of doubt, the best thing would be to identify a few Schools of interest to your DD and ask them. Best wishes to your DD

I've been lurking on this thread, really useful and interesting stuff, thanks all. DS wants to apply for Maths and is thinking of Cambridge and Warwick as his top two but I'm not sure which other unis to guide him towards as he clearly needs some other options! He has said not London and not Scotland but which others should we be visiting/considering?

Bath and Durham, and perhaps some of Bristol, Manchester, Exeter, Lancaster, Loughborough, Southampton.

I think on the gender issue with STEP, confidence and being willing to take risks plays a good part. With STEP you don't know which university you are probably going to go to until A Level results day. That creates a large feeling of uncertainty.

You have to be pretty brave, confident or willing to accept that uncertainty. My personal observation is that female mathematicians generally tend not to have as much confidence in their ability as their male counterparts. For them, Oxford feels like a more comfortable bet, where by January or so, they have more certainty.

I would add Leeds to the ‘perhaps’ list. Def above Exeter on mathematical grounds.

@poetryandwine
Thank you that’s reassuring re other choices. To be honest my main concern is that she enjoys the work. It’s interesting about confidence issues . At the moment it wouldn’t occur to her not to be confident about her maths ability but she has been in a non selective comprehensive and has always been knocking about at the top of the year group. It will be interesting to see how she feels once she is in an A level maths group at a college which takes kids from the whole county and the class is presumably entirely made of students who are very good at maths.
@OhYouBadBadKitten The point about the wait for STEP is thought provoking - that seems an unnecessary layer of stress. It makes me twitchy thinking about fielding that uncertainty although I’m not sure how she would be. She is usually ok as long as she has a plan B. There is always a year out I suppose. An argument for changing the system so pupils could apply after exams- the current system seems so stressful.

Also on the ‘perhaps’ list, though behind Leeds, I would add Sheffield. A quiet gem with some pockets of outstanding excellence, if readers will excuse phrase.

This post and my previous one are for @IThinkIMadeItWorse

It is def an unnecessary layer of stress,@Cathpot , but then waiting for A level results is equally stressful for less able pupils. This is part of why I have long favoured a post results application process.

I agree with @OhYouBadBadKitten that young women in STEM tend to have less confidence than men. It has nothing to do with ability. I had not thought about the ramifications for STEP vs MAT and therefore Cambridge vs Oxford. That is very , very interesting. I hope your DD maintains her confidence.

BTW most STEM programmes discourage gap years, from a concern that maths will be lost. I have argued against this with incomplete success and even heard of the very occasional student admitted to Cambridge maths on the second attempt. But it must be kept uppermost in mind when planning

Can I add Manchester to the maths uni lists. My 2 DSes did maths degrees, their UCAS choices were Warwick, Manchester, Bath, Exeter, Southampton, Birmingham, Nottingham and Cardiff. DS1 went to Warwick and DS3 to Manchester. Cardiff and Exeter were intended as insurance choices, but they actually insured with Birmingham and Southampton.

Cathpot When it comes to it, ignoring the entrance requirements, if your dd prefers the course at Cambridge to Oxford then she should apply. If she doesn't quite hit the target on the day and ends up at another university such as Warwick or Imperial she will still come out with an excellent maths degree that will give her the same sort of opportunities. To give up on ones dreams because the journey towards it provokes anxiety is a sad decision to make.

I would do both MAT and STEP in that situation. Preparing for MAT will also help with interview prep, and even if MAT goes badly then Imperial might still make an offer including STEP.

Plus there is the chance that the MAT grade will be good enough for an imperial offer, but they don't get an offer for Cambridge, which then means STEP doesn't have to be sat (though I would still recommend working through some papers as good university prep!)

Cathpot I highly recommend your dd registers an interest in the Women in Maths Program. The residential takes place in March of Year 12.

https://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/admissions/outreach-access-and-schools-liaison/wim

@Tamato makes some really good points. When trying to decide between Cambridge and Oxford for maths you should look at both courses and (if possible) visit both cities. These are more important than the entry process!

With STEP we (Cambridge) can make more speculative offers - so there might be people who perhaps didn't interview as well but who we think has the potential to do well. There is about 5 months between offer and STEP, so there is some time to prepare (though I would always recommend starting to prepare for STEP much earlier than this - ideally with the foundation modules in year 12).

Just in terms of entry requirements, including London but excluding Scotland, the ones that have been mentioned can be divided into tiers (listing within each tier arbitrary):

1st tier (STEP/MAT AND FM): Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, Warwick
2nd tier (FM): UCL, Durham
3rd Tier (FM OR (AS FM + STEP/AEA)) Bath, Kings
4th Tier (A-star in single maths) Bristol, Manchester
5th Tier (A in single maths) Sheffield, Leeds, Exeter, Lancaster, Nottingham, Birmingham, Southampton, Loughborough, Cardiff

According to their web-page (https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/studywithus/ugstudy/courses/UG/Mathematics-BSc-Hons-U6UMATHS.html) Nottingham's standard offers require an Astar in Maths if you don't have an A in Further Maths at A or AS level.

@OhYouBadBadKitten
Thank you for that suggestion, she has registered her interest . I may be putting my own worries on to her about STEP- she might be fine , she’s an odd fish sometimes, it’s difficult to judge what will spin her out. I thought GCSEs would be a nightmare because she puts pressure on herself re grades but actually once we had made an unbelievably detailed revision plan she was surprisingly calm. At the moment she doesn’t know enough about the process of applying to uni to be worried!

@EctopicSpleen
That is a really useful list to think about spreading the choices out.

Thanks @EctopicSpleen that list is really helpful.

It seems the grade requirements fall quite rapidly. We'll have to see if we can visit some over the summer or in the autumn.

I've been googling and I think about 6000 students get an A star in Further Maths each year but I guess a lot of them do other subjects not just Maths. Also the gender gap is interesting, about 70% of Further Maths students are male which is a bit depressing.

The approximately 6000 is about right (before Covid it was more like 4000). Don't forget that there will also be IB students/Scottish Highers/overseas.

FM gender balance is not great (but better than Physics!). I think one of the issues is that girls tend to be more "rounded" in their ability, and so are good at a lot of things. In schools which restrict them to three A levels they might not be willing to have 2 out of 3 being maths (many schools allow a fourth the four contain maths and further maths, but not all).

Cambridge requires FM (this changed about 6 years ago from requiring AS FM). Its easier for a student to teach themselves FM in sixthform than catch up in the first year of a very demanding course. The Advanced Maths Support Programme has lots of support for students sitting FM on their own, as well as support for students preparing for entrance tests. If in Wales, check out the Further Maths Support Programme.

I have also found this whole thread really useful, thank you to all.
DD would be eligible for this amazing sounding residential next year, however given :
"we are particularly keen to identify students with little or no family tradition of higher education, those whose schools don’t send many applicants to Cambridge University, and students who’ve spent any time in care."
all of which I totally agree with, but DD would totally fail the first and third points and partially meet the second, I assume the chances of getting a place would be very slim?
TSR suggest that about 60 places are available and I believe (very approx) 4,500 female students took FM last summer.