York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Birmingham , again a reasonable southern contingent, although the West Mids is by some way the biggest grouping. North West has a smaller representation that I might have expected.

Warwick is of course the W in COWI, and almost has the graph to match. Almost 50% of undergrads from London and South-East. Less than 20% from the West and East Mids' regions.

Who does that leave from the CUG listing? Southampton, an excellent Uni that often flies under the radar, well my radar least. Plus for context its South Coast friends at Portsmouth, Bournemouth and Brighton.

Finally to underline that datasets can sometimes mislead - Sunderland Uni. Which I believe has a London campus?

And undergrads whose domicile is Buckinghamshire. Where they are by region, and the most popular overall set of Unis they attend. Which highlights that a more specific breakdown by school type might be interesting.

When we went to Birmingham Open Day we were shown round by a lad from Bolton. He said he was the only person from the NW that he knew of!

Thanks, @boys3, for crunching those numbers. As a Geog grad, I have enjoyed looking all those graphs!

More a theoretical question than a practical one, which uni would I need to attend to maximise my chances of meeting fellow students from the widest range of UK regions? Perhaps U of Nottingham.

Returning to @GodessOfThunder's point about the difficulties of non-SE domiciled DC accessing the London job market, an overlooked dimension is that unis like U of Bath, U of Warwick and U of Exeter which trade heavily on placement years and the resultant employability of their degrees rely on the fact that a big proportion of their student body are SE domiciled and so can more credibly apply for London based placement years vs non-SE domiciled.

Lancaster's employability boost, say, is probably less impressive in absolute terms but given its less SE-centric student body profile, its employability 'value added' may well be very good relative the likes of Bath, Warwick and Exeter.

" It’s pretty obvious though that there’s a strong “showing off” factor in many HE threads (eg. why there are Oxbridge “support threads” and no equivalent for other institutions)"

@GodessOfThunder - I see what you mean, but I would that that a large element here will simply be that the process of applying to Oxbridge is very different to other unis. PS has to be in by mid-Oct; there are admissions tests; extra mini-PS (for Cambridge); multiple interviews / pooling and a set day for results. Not to mention there are over 30 colleges to choose from within each institution. All this can seem like a minefield first time round. For other unis, it's just a case of getting the UCAS form in by Jan and wait and see.

Medicine applications are also more complicated so it's not surprising there are running threads for these each year.

To clarify, what I had in mind was more the “support threads” that discuss the Oxbridge student experience while the students are actually studying there.

Obvs everyone cares about any DC at university, but I’m just curious as to why it seems to be mostly Oxbridge parents who feel the need for “support threads” for their adult children at university. Can’t help but think there’s an element of display/feeling by extension part of an “elite” community involved.

I don't think that at all @GodessOfThunder.
Being an Oxbridge student is a very different experience from being a student elsewhere.

DD was very definitely not Oxbridge material, so I have no skin in the game, but the intensity of the work does mean that probably the students or parents of students need a different type of support.

Oh, I see. I do think there is a little of that, yes. I don't go on the Oxbridge support thread personally, as it seemed to me to be a group that formed years ago. I think they all just hit it off during the admissions process maybe?

More a theoretical question than a practical one, which uni would I need to attend to maximise my chances of meeting fellow students from the widest range of UK regions? Perhaps U of Nottingham.

@PerpetualOptimist The answer perhaps surprisingly is Durham, closely followed by York, Leeds, Sheffield and Nottingham. Clearly this is just a numbers game, no socio-economic factors come into consideration. So widest range of regions, not widest range of backgrounds.

I’m pretty familiar with the workload at Oxbridge, so I agree it is heavier. But most comments don’t seem about that at all. Lots of rowing chat, for instance:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4559396-oxford-cambridge-current-students-support-chat-thread-2022

In many ways, once you’re there, Oxbridge is amongst the most supported and structured university experiences there are. Less need to deal with renting shared housing, catered accommodation beyond first year, lots of face time with staff etc.

Yet, parents of current students elsewhere seem less inclined to chat about these things.

I doubt people come on MN to show off on a univesrity thread. I have kept up the thread for those who went to university in 2017 (which is still going and I will keep it going until my sons qualify in 2024) but I certainly don't see it as a showing off thing - it is just a group of similar mothers whose children went to university in 2017 and it is interesting to see how everyone is doing - more a through thick and thin thing than a my child is better than yours thing.

Good data above about institutions. it does not surprise me that there is a much lower number from the NE going to unviersity than from the SE. Part of that will be people moving - all 3 of me and my siblings left Newcastle for university and work and did not settle back home after. it is a kind of brain drain from areas of relative poverty just as my grandfather's parents moved the family from further South in the 1800s to the Durham coalfield area because it was bookming and there was so much money up there (as you can see from the lovely Victorian buildings in Newcastle, Durham, Bishop Auckland (where my father and his father were born) etc). So I suppose it is a kind of cycle of humans moving when times are better or worse which we have probably done for 200,000 years even retreating and returning in and after ice ages across the planet so no change there really.

The Durham (very good) , Newcastle (not quite so good but still quite good) , Sunderland (not great) contrasts again on the data above are as we would expect. Many local peopole at Sunderland or it might have been Northumbria ex poly on the chart abvoe), not quite so many at Newcastle and even fewer at Durham where my fther and uncle went - local to them back in the day - my uncle went in 1936 for medicine and I have his bill and weirdly it is almost the same fees as today after allowing for inflation - about £9k which his father had to pay.

@GodessOfThunder I have been on two HE parent support threads, one for UEA and one for one of the three uni's this thread is about. In both cases the thread was started by people because there was a reasonable contingent of DC off to that particular uni, and it made sense to start a separate thread than clog up the general one. Both of these threads have been really helpful in navigating uni and location specific issues eg recommendations for dog friendly hotels/restaurants, or getting feedback on the best student estate agents to use, or logistics for graduations. I haven't looked at the support threads for Oxbridge but would expect them to be similar.

Having been on the UEA threads I think they may have been slightly more grounded. ?? if that is the right word. Who can forget the challenges of the mice droppings needed for one DC's dissertation. 😀

I think given the findings across the large amount of research that has been done on the emotional rewards that result from participating in some social media, it would be highly unlikely that there wasn’t a degree of perceived status enhancement/boosted self-esteem experienced by parents involving themselves in a group for Oxbridge DC. Whether they are self aware/honest to admit it on Mumsnet is a different matter.

@boys3 Buckinghamshire students access a local uni. No surprise in that surely? Can you check if it’s the same for Derby, Lincoln, Liverpool and Plymouth? I bet it is. Also some of these will be adult students. Apprentice students too presumably. Therefore I think Bucks has a very high number of RG unis. Oxford Brooks is also commutable for many. The number of pupils going to RG unis is far less from secondary modern schools in Bucks so the lists reflect both types of schools but also that local people use local universities. Hardly a surprising revelation. Take a look at Sheffield destinations!

Given the old saying I'd avoid that bet if I were you @TizerorFizz

The point about Bucks is that it is less local region focused, presumably due to the school mix, and likely higher prevalence of indie pupils. You already I think added a couple of useful destination sets for some Bucks grammars which indicated a likely more nuanced picture; and given you are in Bucks and on balance have more useful contributions than not, I thought Bucks would make an interesting county to look at.

In the South East overall 33.7% attend a South East region uni, in Bucks it is 25.7%. Bucks has a higher proportion as compared to the overall SE going to unis further afield - 12% to East Mids as opposed to 8.3%; West Mids 8.7% as opposed to 5.7%; Yorks and Humber 6.1% vs 4.2%; North West 5.1% vs 4.0%; North East 3.5% vs 2.7%, and ,suggesting a greater level of financial prudence, a slightly smaller figure heading into Scotland.

Derby, Plymouth, Liverpool won't have that profile - but will be more localised. Lincoln will get wrapped up in Lincolnshire, but again will be more local; though probably not to the same extent as the other three.

So remembering the local region figure for Bucks is 25.7% let's have a look

Derby - 50% attend a local region Uni (eg one in the East Midlands). Double the local region figure for Bucks.

Plymouth - 66% attend a local region uni (eg one in the South West)

Liverpool - 58% attend a local region uni (eg one in the North West); Greater Manchester has an almost identical figure

Sheffield - unfortunately gets wrapped in a single figure for South Yorkshire; however as that is 58% I'm confident Sheffield won't be much different.

Lincolnshire - closest figure, but that is still 42% attending a local region uni

Overall the Bucks local region percentage is amongst the very lowest in England- although bettered by Slough (23.7%) oddly enough, and also Surrey (24.7%)

Ah! Interesting. So not “the same”: significantly higher stay local in some areas. Bucks is quite different to the areas which i quoted which is why I wondered about them.

Bucks also has high levels of HE participation. High levels of HE educated parents in many areas too. It has higher levels of income too, especially in the south. It doesn’t have a massive number of independent schools. Several did start by taking Dc who didn’t pass the 11 plus but are now more academic, eg Pipers Corner. Big name schools are Stowe and Wycombe Abbey. Possibly Berkhamsted just over the border in Herts. In Bucks, the grammars are overwhelmingly the big names! It’s also rarely recognised that Bucks has some great secondary moderns too. 30% higher achievers in some of them is not unusual. They easily compare with comps in other areas.

Many of the grammar parents expect RG and stats imply that’s where many Dc go. As your list implies. Far and wide because folk look for the best universities and mostly don’t have RG within commuting distance. Other former polys are popular. With good reason.

Interesting though and thanks for your comment that I have “on balance” more useful contributions than not. Damned with faint praise is better than none at all.

As a Geog grad, I have enjoyed looking all those graphs!
Shame they're already coloured in @PerpetualOptimist 😁(sorry everyone, old geographers joke).

More a theoretical question than a practical one, which uni would I need to attend to maximise my chances of meeting fellow students from the widest range of UK regions? Perhaps U of Nottingham.
Interesting. DD2 did her first degree at NTU and while we fulfil the cliche of coming from Bucks – and she did indeed literally bump into a friend from home on her first day – the 4 girls she shared with in her second and fourth years were from Manchester, Derby, the East End and Liverpool. She really liked the fact that students seemed to come from all over, though of course it's a huge university so not all that surprising it is the case.

DD's friends at Newcastle were from Qatar, Bristol, Surrey, Dorset, Durham, Nottingham, Liverpool, Newcastle, Bolton, Doncaster, Sheffield, Huddersfield and Hartlepool.

Haha, thing47, true but they were very good graphs nonetheless and just goes to show a bit of geog analysis can help in deciphering those pesky patterns!

all 3 DC did Geog A level so we have a collection of crayons still, albeit increasingly limited as time passes hence the limited range of colours used.

I did dither about creating a "Home Counties" region, not sure if the geographers would approve or not; for just those counties / council areas in the South East and East that border London.

Yes, @TizerorFizz says, the grammars in Bucks push the RG line pretty hard. The secondary moderns used to just be happy to get kids into a university, any university! Though to be fair the one I am most familiar with has improved massively thanks to a really strong HT and an excellent SLT. 6 years ago they still didn't really know what to do with pupils who wanted to study 'hard' science subjects…

Having had one at grammar and one at secondary modern just 2 years apart I could bore you all to tears about the differences – as it pertains to south Bucks at least – so probably best I leave it there 😂