York, Durham, Exeter

[GodessOfThunder]

These universities seem feature in a disproportionate amount of discussion on Mumsnet as institutions commenters see as desirable for their DC to attend. Obviously they are well regarded universities, but why do they attract more discussion here than other Russell group universities, especially those in northern and midlands post-industrial cities such as Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool, Nottingham and Birmingham?

A few possible reasons were suggested by DH:

• They enjoy an undue level of perceived prestige due to being in smaller old cities/towns like Oxbridge
• The Mumsnet user base is skewed towards the SE and biased against post-industrial cities. Mumsnetters are less likely to be familiar with them and hold “grim up north” perceptions.
• There is a “showing off” factor in starting threads and commenting that DC has applied for, or attends, these institutions - the same goes for the “Oxbridge support” threads, the like of which you never see for red bricks.

Does anyone agree, or are there other explanatory factors?

Well it’s mentioned on here as it’s a top 10 Uni. But it’s always in the context of second choice to others because it’s not cool. It’s not near a attractive city and it’s not got a collegiate system or any other cliquey selling points.

@Socrateswasrightaboutvoting I got my info from the Sunday Times Uni guide when it was published. Warwick was much better than most for diversity . Can’t link as you need to pay.

Yes, I agree that Warwick is often damned with faint praise on here. As I said upthread , York is too.

Have DT’s - DS went to Warwick (Engineering) and DD York (MFL). Both had different ‘wants’ from their Uni experience. Don’t think either of them read any league tables before they decided. DS always had Warwick at the top of his list. DD dithered between offers from StA and York but decided StA was too quiet and remote. Both had 3 A’s at A levels so had options although both needed three A’s for their final choice.

York is not usually AAA for MFL. That’s Oxbridge grades. They are AAB like nearly everyone else. York and Warwick are continually praised on MN. As they are both campus they don’t suit everyone. The great thing is that Dc have choice in this country. If you don’t read league tables, where do you get info? From other people? How do you decide Warwick is better than Coventry for engineering if you don’t look at ranking info?

DD needed AAA for both StA and York. DS decided on Warwick by what the course covered and campus visits including a weekend event organised by the engineering department.

Like others then, they have lowered the grades for MFL. It was AAB when dd looked at York 10 years ago and AAB now.

However, the question still remains, how do you choose a uni for quality and outcomes if you don’t look at league tables? How do you decide on Warwick?

Is anyone saying don’t look at league tables? I think not.

But, I do think several posters have convincingly argued that within “tier 2” (RG + Bath, Loughborough etc.), thinking, say, Bristol, Durham or Exeter are significantly better than other institutions within that tier is based on a flimsy foundation.

Make the final selection based on the city, type of uni and course content within one’s target tier.

I think league tables just give a basic guideline and should be taken with a pinch of salt, especially the Guardian one.

Schools still very much push the idea of RG universities, although by now I think everyone knows that St Andrews, Loughborough, Lancaster and Bath are more highly regarded than many RG universities.

There are so many factors that influence choice of university these days, and unfortunately more and more these days, choice is often dictated by finances.

Also, hearsay can be quite incorrect. Newcastle has the reputation as a party university and can put quieter students off. DD is sociable, but doesn't like clubbing and only likes the occasional party with close friends, and she loved Newcastle. Partying and clubbing is very much optional at any university TBH.

What makes a ‘better’ Uni is different for each student. Not everyone is so obsessed with league tables and tiers. Finding a course which covers what you want (this was why DS chose Warwick as they covered very specific modules he was interested in - and is now working in this field) and where you will be happy is the most important imo.

@GodessOfThunder The poster (Parker) I replied to said her DC didn’t look at league tables. That’s why I was trying to engage about how they chose Warwick and York. I would look at ranking and many do. The question is, if you don’t, where do you acquire info? How do you make comparisons?

@RampantIvy I agree money does dictate where Dc go and geography. Many from the North don’t go south of Sheffield. Yet London Dc look much further and don’t discount Scotland.

I don’t think vast numbers of students want clubs and parties . Far fewer than is made out. Newcastle was a destination of choice for those wanting a night out “on the toon”, but all universities have a large number who don’t bother much with nightlife. However I’ve known Sheffield to be party central, for those who want it! That’s the issue isn’t it. You are friends with people like you. They find like minded Dc. As unis have got bigger and bigger, the choice of friends is bigger too.

@TizerorFizz I think that’s the point of the thread. People chose by reputation not league tables.
I am always surprised how few people know anything about Warwick Uni despite it being highly ranked. Yet everyone knows Durham and thinks that Bath, Bristol and Exeter are “good”Unis despite not knowing where they rank.

'London DC' actually have a pretty small group of universities north of Nottingham they will consider . They use train lines, and reputation just as much. Non affluent London DC I'd be willing to bet remain in a pretty small geographical radius.

Many from the North don’t go south of Sheffield. Yet London Dc look much further and don’t discount Scotland.

Yes, a lot of this will be down to finances and maybe, judging from this thread, the perception that universities like Exeter, Bristol etc are full of public school types and "not for the likes of us"?

There are exceptions with Durham and St Andrews, and Newcastle has a surprisingy high number of privately educated students as well.

DD looked at Warwick, York, Lancaster and Bristol and didn't like any of them, and this was completely without any preconceived ideas.

@RampantIvy - we’re central London but DT’s went to Warwick and York. I loved StA but DD didn’t and travel would have been challenging!

When I was at school in South London all my friends went north. One went to Swansea, but Hull, Manchester and Newcastle were popular. This was 1977.

There is a strong regional dimension to consider. In my experience, DC and parents in the north of England will typically have unis north of Birmingham on their radar. Bristol, Bath and Exeter will not really register as 'good' unis in the way that many SE domiciled DC and parents assume. Scottish DC have long favoured Scottish unis and that has been even more the case in recent times with funding differences post-devolution.

I'm not sure that SE DC are naturally more geographically adventurous with uni choices (as implied by Tizor). Fast radial train routes certainly make things easier from London compared with, say, Cross-Country for NW or NE DC but I suspect the same geographical inertia applies to SE DC, as Piggy suggests. Yes, Durham, Edin and StA are emphatically northern but there are historical, social and aesthetic (as well as academic) reasons/perceptions why these particular unis have drawn SE DC as well as those from the north of England and Scotland.

Our journey back to Sheffield from the Bristol open day with Cross Country was teminated at Birmingham. The staff told us that this was a common occurrence. As DD wasn't enamoured with Bristol she said that this was the final nail in the coffin for Bristol, and struck it off her list.

Ease of public transport home is an important consideration. One of DD's friends regularly flies home to Bristol from Newcastle.

Ease of public transport home is an important consideration

We're in a part of the country where getting to practically anywhere else (regionally speaking) by public transport means going into London and back out again. Not usually a big deal, but there was the evening when DS1's train from Birmingham was delayed... and delayed... and for a while, just sat marooned somewhere. It hot to the point where we were desperately trying to work out whether he would would miss the last train out in our direction anyway. In the end, I rang the hotel near Euston that we used to book for work and managed to get him their last room. (And yes, he would have missed the last train. To be fair, though, I think that was the most disruption any of ours have had).

Last Friday DD and a friend came home for the weekend.

1. The metro broke down so they missed the train (the last through one to Wakefield)
2. They bought tickets for the LNER service to get to Wakefield via Doncaster
3. This train was late due to livestock on the line
4. The train from London that was going to Wakefield via Doncaster was late due to passenger illness on a previous train
5. In the end I told them to get on a train to Meadowhall where I picked them up several hours after they would have been home

And the government are trying to get us to give up our cars🙅

I am not London but Bucks. Grammar and secondary Dc mostly go north and west plus a smattering to London! If their destination lists are anything to go by! Many universities are used north of Sheffield. Certainly not just Durham and Scottish ones. Newcastle has always been popular with private school Dc. That’s not new.

It’s true league tables do not tell the whole story. Who you might find as friends is not there! Other pupils at school you might respect makes a difference too. Where are they thinking about? Choices are a bit tribal. However open days are strange events. DD1 was more concerned about future career. DD2 also. That’s another aspect rarely considered and not easy to quantify.

In reference yo Warwick, it very much fies have a well regarded reputation amongst parents of children at private school in London. It’s right up there with Oxbridge or the LSE for econ, Oxbridge or Imperial for Maths. No one cares that it is “really in Coventry.”

I think it varies significantly by grammar @TizerorFizz . Which ones were you looking at because the ones I know there is quite a lot of Oxbridge and London (Imperial, LSE in particular) and Birmingham too.

Not huge numbers to Oxbridge at all in mid Bucks. Not really London either. South bucks is a lot closer to London. Different parent body too in terms of where they work and what they do.

Eg Aylesbury grammar, LSE 1, Imperial 3, UCL 4. Oxbridge 14.

what about SSE Bucks vs SSW Bucks? Inquiring minds want to know.