Talk to me about modern languages degrees please!

[Carlacollection]

After much prodding, my year 12 daughter has finally got round to thinking about universities and has decided she wants to take modern languages. She is doing French and Spanish for A levels but wants to start German at Uni as well. Do all unis allow three languages does anyone know? What else should she be looking out for please???

I think two languages is a good idea, three not so much. Year abroad would be very fragmented and so would your study in the UK. Or one language would be very much sidelined. Or you would have a ridiculous amount of work in order to have a meaningful study of three languages.

If teaching is in any way likely as a career (and it’s one of the key ways to use MFL in the workplace in a major way) then much as it pains me, a Germanist, to say it, I would go for French and Spanish. German sadly is being taught less and less in schools so there is less demand for teachers.

OTOH if she is thinking of industry then German is actually more in demand. Go figure.

In terms of unis, in general, aim as high as you can. MFL is less popular so the offer may be lower. Some unis no longer offer it tho (looking at you Luffers) so that will narrow things down. Also consider weighting of lang vs lit on the course as this will vary. Best of luck to her!

I agree, choosing two languages is best, it’s more interesting and easier to maintain the two to a higher standard.

DD is just starting to look at this, though she is only Y10 so early days. One thing you will often see is that the university language department will have a “languages for all” offering so that a language can be started or continued by any member of the university outside the confines of a degree requirement. In some places it can attract course credit.

This might be a way for your DD to learn German from scratch without taking it at degree level. You do limit options if you have to confine university choices to those which offer three-language degrees. My DD is looking at the same sort of idea to start Arabic alongside degree-level French/Italian or French/linguistics.

Although French and Spanish might seem best for teaching, I wonder whether having the A-levels means that even if she only does one of them at university, she'd still be okay for teaching the other, at least at KS3 and possibly KS4.

A good starting point would be what does she like about languages? As Clary said, she needs to think about whether she wants literature or language as a bias (or linguistics, or a business-related course). Bear in mind that universities can very much choose what they want to offer, unlike A-levels. No point hoping for decent business-French if your tutors are determined to inundate you with 16th century French poetry.

(I'm not knocking either option; DD surprised to find how much she likes bawdy 16th century European drama!)

Oh, and most language degrees will offer a year abroad. It's more complicated post-Brexit. Start looking into it early. Do not accidentally miss the foreign uni application deadline, or lose your passport just before your Embassy appointment, or aim to go in an unprecedented international pandemic, if at all possible...

For sure - I have French to A level and (thanks to lots of time spent there too) I am more than happy with KS4 and in fact KS5 French.

But if I were looking to employ a French teacher I wouldn’t pick me with my German degree. So a school looking for a Spanish or Spanish and French teacher (which so many are) would not look at someone with a French and German degree.

This may all be very moot of course!

Lots of universities allow two languages plus a subsidiary to pick up a third. I did this myself. If you are good at languages, learning a third won't be a detriment in any way.
Although I teach French at university now, I am fluent in German and to a lesser degree, Spanish, and taught all three while teaching in high schools. But your daughter might not want to be a teacher anyway; there are a myriad of jobs you can do with a languages degree.

What else should she be looking out for please???

Hello OP, a good start point would be for your DD to identify what she likes to start filtering courses. They vary by uni, from being heavy literature based, to integrating with history, English, politics, culture etc. Most can be flexible on modules to build around a student’s interests.

Does she want to be in a city, campus, near/far from home.

What institutions does the uni have links with, so employers recruit from them. As a PP has said, there are a vast number of career streams available beyond teaching (and unless I’ve missed this, you haven’t said this is where her interest lies?)

Go and visit unis in Y13. And if she can’t cover all, use the engagement functions like chat to a student and department to get a feel for what it’s like to study there.

Most unis will have language suited to add on additional languages beyond core if she decides to focus her degree on 2. It would be a shame to not add an ab initio language to her Spanish/French but not compromise getting it to a high level upon graduation, a risk doing 3 with spreading year abroad too thinly. If her French and Spanish is already decent at A level, maybe she doesn’t need to continue both at UG?

Good luck to her on applications.

Given how desperate schools are for MFL teachers, if she wants to be a teacher and has any kind of MFL degree, she will probably find she’s recruited to teach any languages to the top levels…..schools woukd just be glad to have a linguist of any type to be honest. It’s dire.

She won’t need to be a teacher - lots of doors will be open.

My DD is in Year 3 of a 4 year MFL degree. She did Spanish at GCSE and A level. She chose a joint honours in Spanish and German ( which she had never studied before.) The first two years were a bit tricky for her - high confidence and attainment in Spanish but no confidence to contribute to lessons in German. The first year was all online and the second a blended version but minimal ‘in class lessons’. Her third year has been her year abroad. Partly working as a language assistant in a German high school. Quite a tall order but she’s done it successfully, living in 2 different flats with a variety of people. In the end she loved it and is fluent in German now. She moved back home for a week before starting the Spanish part of her year abroad - living and studying at a language school in Costa Rica!

I too would say stick with the two MFLs you know. Not many employers need three. It is better to be immersed in two rather than spreading yourself too thinly. Plus the MFL courses do require a lot of reading. I would avoid the language heavy ones because they seem to think students will work in translation. Reality is that they won’t. Transferable skills are worth more from a variety of challenging topics. DD did Medieval French. That would have been unthinkable before uni. So always choose a strong MFL department that has plenty of degree level students. They offer more options and, no, not many teach afterwards. Only in MN world.

Some unis offer free language tuition to those doing any degree. I met a student today who was studying French and Chinese joint degree and had taken lessons in Japanese with two assessments throughout the year. This will be recorded on the degree transcript. It does mean you can indulge your love of learning languages without it becoming too arduous.
I speak 2 mfls and also teach another language that I don't even have a GCSE in, so the comment made by a pp about the desperation to recruit specialists was highly accurate!

There are some good three-language degree courses but the grades are often higher, because it is a more demanding degree. At Exeter, for example, she could do French, Spanish and German from beginners. She'd have to spend her international placement in Germany, but could spend the summers bookending this in France and Spain. Because most of the degree is spent on language, there's only limited cultural modules [just 30 out of 120 a year]. But a lot of students like the programme.

Single Honours ML Degree is hard work (ie one main language plus a subsid one.) We studied the development of French from Latin, Medieval and 16th, 17th , 18th, 19th, 20th Century Literature, plus some politics, philosophy, art etc. Often there is an option to spend a year working in the country of the first language. I spent a term at a French University then a year working in France. ( To improve your language skills the trick is to make sure you don't meet up with other expats because it's an easy way of getting a social life.) It takes guts to overcome culture shock and make the most of the year when you're in a country where you know no one / you have to find your own accommodation / register with the Police / there may be general strikes etc.

I had friends who did a Joint Honours ML degree ie 2 languages supposedly at the level of the Single Honours degree. It nearly killed them. They were excused certain options of the 2 languages but the work level was very demanding. They spent a term in one country and the next year in the other.

I started Spanish and we got to A level standard in 10 weeks. ( But with knowledge of French and Latin it really was quite doable.) We then joined the cohort who had done A level at school. I went on to do Single Honours French with Spanish subsid ie at General Degree level see below. My knowledge of French was way better than my knowledge of Spanish.

Some people did 3 languages as a General Degree but it did not entail the same level of study as the previous 2 options nor did it require residence in any foreign country for more than a long holiday of upto 3 months. Their language skills were generally well below the Honours people ie nowhere near a native speaker or the level needed to use them professionally.

If you can get a course that dispenses with literature / philology etc it maybe that the language skills in the 3 languages will be better than the General Honours degree but I doubt it unless they can spend say min 2 years abroad.

Whether this matters depends on whether you intend to use the languages professionally or whether you intend to moe on to something else.

@Annasoror Grqdes required for 3 are not higher. Mainly because Oxford doesn’t allow three. Neither does Cambridge. These offer the best academic MFL courses which are the most competitive to access. They expect learning to a greater depth.

I would also emphasise looking at the balance of the course, the extent to which literature is weighted against other aspects of learning (eg history, politics, linguistics, etc), and the ability to which she can flex - can she start a three-language degree with the option to drop to two after a year or two?

And with flex in mind, I’d recommend looking at Scottish universities. It may well have changed now but 20 years ago, I started a two-language degree there and picked up a third language ab initio as an “outside subject” in first year. Liked it enough that I dropped one of my other languages to carry it on. Changed the course of my life.

So an option where she can do three languages but with the option to drop one after a year or two (easier in terms of the year abroad as well) would be well worth looking into/asking about on open days.

If Scottish unis are 5 years, that’s a long haul. They are 4 year degrees in England. Usually Scottish unis have an extra year. However, with funding I’m not sure how that works. Although DD got a place on an undergrad masters MFL course. That was 5 years with the year abroad. When uni says it didn’t enhance employability, DD decided it was a waste of a year. DD knows a MFL grad who had to pick up Spanish to teach as his second MFL was not mainstream. He did it whilst doing pgce. There are ways you can add a MFL without diluting the first degree.

My dd did 3 languages - the two (French and German) she had studied at A level plus a 3rd (Russian) ab initio. Her year abroad was 6 months in Vienna and what would have been 6 months in St Petersburg but was truncated due to Covid. She had to persuade her uni to let her continue all 3 languages beyond the 2nd year but I don’t think it was too difficult although her module choice might have been limited a bit due to timetabling. She is now working as an accountant in the U.K. and Switzerland so using her French and German. Russian was her favourite though but the current political situation limits her options for working there so I think she’s pleased she kept up all three.

3-language degrees do ask for higher grades in a number of places because it is a demanding course. My job brings me into close contact with grade requirements in MFL degrees - I'm not just making it up.

@Annasoror Which unis ask for higher grades for 3? The highest grades are Oxbridge? Who asks for higher than them?

I mean that a university will ask for higher grades for 3 languages than they would for 2 languages. So somewhere like Exeter might ask for AAB for two languages but AAA for three languages.

We have just researched Exeter @Annasoror and you are right - if you want to do three languages, the offer is AAB. If just two, it is ABB. Haven't found any other uni that does that though - most just want ABB

Durham is AAA but 2 MFLs count for the degree and one is dropped if you have started another to make it three. Bristol do 3 but same grades required but 2 MFL A levels are required. Exeter is unusual but Bristol close off 3 to 1 MFL A level candidates.

DS did Spanish and French with ab initio German a few years ago with the intention of teaching. His course was mainly language/cultural based with some literature which was what he wanted. He did his year abroad in France as he already spoke Spanish to a high level. He also did 3 months in Germany off his own bat during the summer between finishing his degree and starting a PGCE. He was recruited for a job teaching Spanish and French but has almost exclusively taught Spanish. He has also taught Latin. He is now a Head of Languages. Spanish and French are the most popular languages in his school and although German is still offered it is falling out of favour.

Are there many universities that offer German ab initio? I would have thought that would narrow it down to a very small number.
The choice of a dual or three language degree completely depends on what aspects of languages they enjoy. There's no advantage or disadvantage from a future employment perspective. I did 3 languages simply because I enjoyed learning languages and found it easy. I didn't want to study loads of literature.
It makes no difference to the year abroad, that is usually just split in two anyway, it's not possible to do more than a short language course in the third country.