Maths degree without further maths A level

[fernsgotlegs]

Is it possible to get into a decent uni to study maths with an A or A* in maths A level but no further maths A level? And if you do get a place would you feel out of your depth among students with FM?

DC doing maths, econ and politics A levels, predicted A*AA and feels exams are going very well so far. Has accepted an offer for business at Exeter, but really prefers maths, but lacked confidence to apply because of not taking FM. Would it be realistic to reapply for maths, or is the lack of FM a genuine barrier/disadvantage?

Yes of course! He wouldn't get into Imperial or Warwick, but there will be plenty of decent unis that will accept a student without FM. Problem is he's need to reject all his current offers and re-apply to any with vacancies - I think we're to enter clearing, so he needs to make a decision and start trawling through websites quick.

I have a Maths BSc and MSc and I didn’t study further maths, this is from 2 Russell Group universities if it matters.

This is a tough one, OP.

For context, I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor. My School recommends but does not require FM. DH is a Maths professor.

There are two issues. One is that when many Schools of Mathematics say they recommend but do not require FM, they will mark down an applicant who had the opportunity to elect FM but did not. Their language is meant to encourage applicants who were not in a position to elect FM.

So if your DS had the chance of FM and did not take it, his options will be limited.

However, many SoMs, including the ones using the language I have discussed, do not require FM. If most students have not done it, everything should be fine. Problems tend to arise for those who lack FM when most have done it. Although there may be no formal reliance on FM, the FM material may be covered very quickly. Students who did not take it can lose confidence and often do. This is true even in Maths-adjacent disciplines.

Your DS sounds very able. Sadly the Maths programmes where fewer students have done FM tend not to be those for the most able. This is the paradox he faces.

One option would be to do FM first, in a single year. That is probably what I would suggest to my own DC if they had this change of heart.

Regarding the two posts just above mine, FM has become much more popular at the ‘RG+’
Schools of Mathematics in recent years, not only at the COWI institutions but atvthe next tier. Based on the PGs you listed, that tier is what I was thinking about.

When the PP above me attended, FM was likely a minority qualification at that tier. @titchy is correct that there are loads of good universities, including RG, where FM is not required. However that doesn’t change the dynamics of the situation I discussed when most students have it.

Exeter doesn't require FM, certainly my ds didn't do it and has not struggled at all with the maths content there.

I agree with poetryandwine's advice.

He might also want to look at MORSE as a subject (maths, operational research, statistics and economics). The same caveats may apply about further maths requirements.

My DD did a maths degree at a ‘Red Brick’ Uni without FM. She hadn’t done FM as aiming for a different career originally. However she did self study a couple of the pure maths modules from the FM syllabus to help herself and boost her confidence before starting the degree.

Further maths is to demonstrate you can hit the ground running in Year 1. My cousin got into Imperial without - they asked her to take specific maths on Coursera. But she didn’t have the opportunity to study it.

About 7 or 8 of the top maths depts in the country require double maths. A few more require AS further maths. So there will be about a dozen for which not having A or AS further maths would be a blocker. The rest - several Russell group members among them - don't require FM. Outside the top dozen schools, many departments typically have places available in clearing e.g. Queen Mary, Royal Holloway.
An alternative path would be to take Further Maths in one year, which is perfectly possible, and reapply for entry in 2024. This would make his application much more competitive at the top dozen schools though realistically he'd need an A*, not an A, in single maths to be taken seriously.

Yes!!

@fernsgotlegs The 2024 Complete University Guide puts Exeter 16th for maths. Interestingly it’s entry standards are much lower than many comparable universities. This might well indicate FM is not necessarily the norm. Have a look at the info. We don’t have huge numbers of unis where everyone has FM. He’s still well placed to ask Exeter if he can change courses I would think.

The trouble is maths a level is nothing like degree level maths. Having done further maths and enjoyed it would give more confidence you will enjoy the degree.
As a maths graduate I wouldn’t recommend it to someone who hadn’t done further maths. In my year there were a significant number who charged course as it was such a step up even from further maths a level.

Clearing opens on 1st July. He can see what places are available and talk directly to see if they would take him. Just a word of caution though, my dd found she was one of only 3 without fm on her engineering course and it did cause issues, with maths it might be even more had fm

One thing about Maths more than other subjects, is that if you start off from a point where you’re not great, it can be difficult to access what’s being covered and be a really miserable experience. To be honest, even people with FM and an Astar at A Level can have that too, because a Maths degree will be a big step up.

If your DS gets an A and not A star in A Level Maths, it might be worth considering if Maths is the right degree for him….or accepting that doing it at a lower ranked uni will be required.

So it depends how good he is. It’s harder to know what his GCSE result means, given they didn’t take exams and so many had 9s. I assume he has a 9. A really good Q is whether he had the option to do FM and chose not to and if he was strongly encouraged to take it by his teachers. If his school offered it and he wasn’t encouraged into it and/or decided he didn’t want to do it, that’s not a great sign. If he had the option and chose not to, why not, given it would always be a 4th and not the 3rd A Level. Did really challenging maths out him off? People who are suited to a Maths degree and want to do it usually jump at the chance to do FM.

I think it could be useful to speak to his teachers too. He could ask them to be honest about if he would have been suitable for FM and if they think he would have done well, plus what they think about him doing a Maths degree. That could be really useful if he’s willing to listen and hear what they say.

I think the DS is predicted A star in Maths.

Nevertheless @WombatChocolate ’s advice is excellent. People do change their minds and come to maths late — I am essentially proving theorems at the moment, and I hated high school maths —- but it isn’t typical to say the least. Teachers can also misread pupils. But if the DS has good rapport with any of his maths teachers this would be a useful conversation.

Also, OP, why the change of heart? It is a very long slog if you don’t love the subject. If it business success you want, accountancy or the like is a much more sensible pathway.

@gogohmm Where is DD? How does she know she is one of three? Was she required to take extra lessons? I can assure everyone though, plenty of engineering courses are not full of people with fm. We would have no engineers if this was the case everywhere. Quite simply, it isn’t.

Given Exeter also offer Maths and Economics joint honours, if that appeals it may be worth him contacting them to see how willing they would be to let him swap.

Yes, my son is about to get a first in Maths at Lancaster - he has 3 A*s but didn't do further maths. No problem with entry requirements. He also got offers at Leeds and York to do Maths degrees. He didn't meet entry requirements for Warwick nor Durham as they did require Further Maths.

On the other hand, practically, he has found parts of the degree more difficult than his peers who did do further maths particularly in the first and second years. Quite a few of the modules "assumed" topics had been done within the further maths A level, and it was basically up to DS to "self study" those aspects whilst doing the modules. His lecturers provided no support other than sometimes suggesting books to read.

He has mentioned a few times that he regretted not doing Further Maths and wished he had done it to A level.

My friend’s DS went to Exeter to do maths with A levels Maths A, Physics B and Geography A. This was just pre-pandemic so 2018 grading. He really struggled without FM and took a sort of catch-up intensive maths course at the uni for those without FM. He actually dropped out by Christmas and took FM A level, (self taught) and retook maths in the June, got A maths, A FM, went to Bristol uni instead.

He felt that the course in Exeter made very little allowance for those without FM and that the catch-up course was much too fast paced, but that might have just been him.

Ah, sorry, should have checked the *!

Geography A star
retook maths got A star.

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry not to return sooner. I shouldn't have posted when I knew I had a couple of long work days and not much time for MN. I will read through all of the replies properly this evening, but interesting to see some have suggested doing FM in a year as he has thought about exactly that - taking a year out and doing FM to catch up.

I've read all of the replies now. I think the balance is that ds might find it difficult without FM, even at universities which don't ask for FM. Big thanks to @WombatChocolate for the thorough reply, but thanks to everyone for some really interesting and helpful comments. I'll get ds to read the thread tomorrow.

He got 9 in GCSE maths and could have taken FM, but as a third subject - his school doesn't allow students to take more than 3 A levels, so he felt it was narrowing his options too much to have 2 x maths plus one other. Maybe that wasn't a good decision. But good to know that others have done the further maths in a year. He was thinking of deferring for a year anyway, to get some work experience.

It’s a shame they don’t allow FM as a 4th - that’s what most places do. It really does disadvantage the able student who might not be certain Maths will be their thing…Perhaps considering medicine and wanting to keep the option of sciences or maths or medicine open. Likewise those fancying trying Econ, might not go for FM if they can’t do it as a 4th but then find the top Econ places want FM but don’t actually require Econ.

It annoys me that some places don’t offer options to allow the able to compete with those from selective state and independent schools and those from Comps which will offer FM as a 4th subject.

Yes there's some unis that expect FM, but DD had offers from all the unis she applied to for Maths and doesn't have FM - they were York, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol and Exeter, so all good unis. She was also considering Sheffield, Manchester, Southampton, Bath, all of which were clear they'd welcome non-FM students. No, none of those are "top 5" but they are all decent unis in general and for maths. We asked the question at all those we visited, and they all said 25-40% of Maths students were non-FM and that it would make Y1 slightly more work but otherwise would not be issue. Given the consistency of their answers (and my experience many years ago - I didn't have FM and got a first, whilst DH had FM and got 2:1) I don't believe that your DS will find it difficult without FM unless he's not willing to put in a bit of extra work in Y1. Both DD and I came to the conclusion when choosing A levels that we'd rather have 3 excellent ones than 4 not so good and that doing 3 including 2 maths was too limiting. So I agree with the choices your DS made.

I studied maths and statistics at LSE and didn't do further maths at A-level 🤷🏽‍♀️