Foreign Students

[EmpressoftheMundane]

I was listening to a pod cast where professors wrote-in regarding concerns about foreign students. Reference: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/planet-normal/id1514949294
Discussion starts at 49.20 on podcast. (Earlier is a discussion about lockdowns.)

Professor complained his most recent cohort was 66% Chinese with only 3 UK students. He sited issues with language, cultures not mixing, and him having to dumb down teaching. He pursued the issue and the university basically said, we need the money. He felt the broader issues of this approach were to exclude our own citizens from education, training up our competition, ruining our own reputation for excellence in higher education, and a brain drain of some of our own human capital.

Do you think this is widespread? Do universities really need the money, or do they want the money?

This would explain the bun fights between state and private schools each claiming the other sector had grabbed all the places. It’s actually foreign students.

@TizerorFizz where DH was working he was one of the very few graduates. He told me that now they want graduates everywhere from what he's heard from ex-colleagues.

I agree with you about the degree apprenticeships but for example the DWP offered a technology degree apprenticeship a few years ago but now only offers a L4 Technology apprenticeship. Yet, the government says employers should offer them but what about their own departments? Also, many young people don't apply for degree apprenticeships because the model of a degree apprenticeship is similar to let's say Applied Computing and not Computer Science which is Maths heavy and requires very high grades so mainly bottom universities offer degree apprenticeships. Sometimes the theoretical part is done by some college where many people would prefer a university on their CV and not a technical/certifications company offering the degree. Many companies don't disclose the theory provider at all. Including many government departments. Even if you attend their virtual get-to-know-us they'd rather answer questions which they've already discussed like being inclusive (why wouldn't they in this day and age?!). At the end of the day if you get the work experience the university name should not matter any more but many providers are not universities.

@chocorabbit I do agree. I think some apprenticeships are not great and certainly use universities that are not top drawer. I guess it’s a trade off between no loan snd the slow route to qualifications and better money earlier in your career. It can take a very long time to do a MEng part time!

My big northern uni is absolutely dominated by international students at Postgraduate Taught level. Undergrad is very different. I don’t think dumbing down happens, but I do think that good HE teachers change up methods of delivery and assessment formats to better reflect the cohort… and I think this is a good thing. Traditional uni teaching is from the dark ages and I think old school lecturers struggle to adapt.

I tend to find that international undergrads have better English than postgrads as many have been to international schools. Postgrads tend to have progressed through their home country education and this is their first experience of English language education. They may also struggle with the cultural context of discussion and sharing opinions, but that doesn’t mean they are not interested or don’t have ideas. We try to offer multiple channels of interaction to address this.

Our international cohort is dominated by Chinese students (90+ percent) with Saudis being the next biggest. It’s a clear aim to broaden this and the uni is trying to actively recruit from other countries. Like all unis, we absolutely need the international fees to remain viable.

@TizerorFizz the thing is whenever I have compared the specifications of a Technology degree apprenticeship with a conventional degree they do seem to align with what bottom universities teach which is more practical and higher ranked universities would not want to do it. Many large, international technology or financial services companies use bottom universities which could be that they are happy and as long as their apprentices get work experience with them that's good enough for them. Let's not forget that many graduate roles do not require a degree on the subject but any subject. As long as you pass their endless tests, assessment centres and interviews they believe that you can do anything with them.

I am none the wiser about which degree apprenticeships are bad. However, I have noticed that the university which started them (QMUL) is not a bottom university and whenever I have seen reviews on ratemyapprenticeship and they are asked to rate their training provider this university always gets 5/10 or lower with comments about how unsupportive they are and also how hard to get in touch, their employer has to intervene so they can meet course deadlines as they haven't been given guidance and there is nobody to ask etc. And that's from many different apprenticeships that use QM. On the other hand technical companies offering such degrees for large companies (e.g. EY), not even universities, at times have very good reviews by the apprentices. The apprentices are not allowed to disclose the name of their knowledge provider on ratemyapprenticeship but you can find out from the company.

@TizerorFizz

Employing a grad is also a short cut - avoiding having to sift at 18 and train up.

It really isn't. Many graduates don't have the skills, knowledge nor experience to actually "do the job" and still need lots of training on the job. In my profession, accountancy, all trainees, whether graduates or school leavers went through the same training process, even accounting graduates. There was absolutely no difference at all in all the firms I worked in. We all did the same kind of work and moved up year by year.

The only difference was the graduates with accounting degrees who got a few exemptions from the professional exams, so maybe they "qualified" a year or two quicker than those without. But even those still did the same work as their colleagues who had more exams to take. It was the requisite number of years that determined when you got off the "trainee treadmill" and could apply for "qualified" jobs as managers.

As DH is a chartered engineer, it is very difficult choosing suitable employees at 18. To get chartered eventually they must have a MEng or equivalent. It’s a bit like being a doctor. The degree matters. University less so but of course the grad engineer must learn on the job post degree. Plenty of lower ranked unis produce very good practical engineers.

You are never the finished article post degree though and grads are not fully qualified until they attain chartered or incorporated status. That can be years later. Judging who can do that at 18 is difficult. Post degree, when you can test and set problems for them to solve, based on what they should know (but often don’t), is a lot easier. Certainly, where time is money, it’s more efficient. This is why degrees can trump apprenticeships. You also avoid issues with the university as described by @chocorabbit. Most graduate engineers with MEng don’t go to university again.

It’s also worth looking, for engineering, if the degrees offered on an apprenticeship, are actually MEng. If BEng, qualifications and earnings will be limited. So it’s not necessarily equivalent to going in with a MEng. Which is still the preferred route of most who aspire to chartered status.

Clearly where any degree will do, and the training is the same for degree holders and 18 year olds, why bother with a degree at all? Except I guess because the firms still take them?

@TizerorFizz

As DH is a chartered engineer, it is very difficult choosing suitable employees at 18.

Whilst I agree, my experience in the years I was involved in recruitment/training of trainee accountants in our firm, I can't say we noticed any difference in drop-out rates or success rates between our 18 year old school leavers and our graduates. We had drop outs and "failures" in both groups. The chartered accountancy bodies' exams are hard, especially when you're studying alongside a full time job, so a lot of trainees fall by the wayside whatever their background, i.e. A levels or degree.

DH has found 18 year olds struggle with the years it takes them of work and part time study. The degree holders are mire likely to have the best motivation. They have worked hard on a 4 year MEng degree. These are often pretty full on. So they are used to fairly full days. Working and learning on the job suits most of them. A few don’t want to become chartered but in order to get a leadership role they need it. It’s not remotely a walk in the park and their work standards and learning is closely monitored.

So I don’t move too far away from the turke of the thread: foreign students doing engineering are very welcome!

This is no surprise to me. I believe him re the university's stance on it. On some courses especially finance, business, law, students who are 1st years have reported they are one of few white peoples and native English speakers on their courses.

The name of the game isn't 'sitting on your laurels'.

I'd be taking note of the universities in China and S Korea and elsewhere that have made an appearance on the top university lists in the last fifteen years instead of being compmacent.

I'd also take note of the American state universities on the lists. These are universities not content to rely wholly on state investment.

They have a very large Chinese student population at my son's Uni. DS often complained that they were very insular and kept themselves together, didn't socialise in the same places as other students, congregated together in lecturers/tutorials etc, even shopped at different places. In fact the Uni has a chinese grocery shop close to it's Spar shop! He said they were a nightmare when they had to work in groups (groups dictated by the lecturer rather than choice) and the group typically ended up in two distinct cliques of Chinese and "Other" and they had problems working collaboratively.

The FBI and others are very worried about Chinese students as China is not particularly friendly to the West. https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2022/07/mi5-and-fbi-warn-of-chinas-desire-to-steal-western-technology/

Good job overseas students from unfriendly nations, who want to study subjects which could be used against the UK have to jump through extra hoops then isn't it
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/find-out-if-you-require-an-atas-certificate

@Kazzyhoward Its interesting that you posted your comments and haven’t been jumped on. I remember saying similar a few years ago and ww3 broke out! Everyone fully integrated and everyone learned from each other - apparently. I was not sure about this utopian view.

DD1 didn’t have Chinese young people on her uni course (MFL), but did have quite a lot at school and in halls. At school there were distinct groups. The girls who were completely friendly and the others who stayed in their group despite the best efforts of the school to integrate everyone. Essentially the students like being with students from the same culture. I don’t think we can complain about that! However when the numbers on a uni course feel overwhelming then it’s a more difficult situation.

Essentially the students like being with students from the same culture. I don’t think we can complain about that!

Exactly! A big part of my role is international student experience and I have KPIs around integration but it's a challenge.
International students will firstly choose to socialise/work with students from their own country and secondly with other international students because they have the fact they are international students in common so have that shared experience.

I organise events aimed at bringing together international and home students and we tend to see high numbers of international students attending and very few (if any) home students attending. I would love to see more integration but you can't force it.

I certainly hope university can continue to achieve the mixing for which it can be so successful, even just within the UK and even UK different social classes too. Eg segregation (by choice) by type of hall can stop mixing (if boarding school pupils are happy with shared bathrooms and want catered halls and others don't) or if those with parents who cannot make the minimum maintenance loan to the maximum have children who go to universities with cheaper accommodation from those who either get the full loan or have richer parents who can top up.

In our discussions on this thread earlier, I came away feeling reassured that foreign students are not pushing UK students out of university. Now I am not so sure.

There have been a flurry of articles in the papers recently. For instance:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/universities-take-foreign-students-ahead-of-british-5nppfw5ks

@EmpressoftheMundane That is at a few unis and certain courses though isn’t it? Although very upsetting if Dc cannot get a place whereas 15 years ago would have had offers all round.

The Times date is 2017 though.

I think the momentum and direction of travel is concerning. Other articles talked about the squeeze particularly on kids who come from middling social classes. Not rich enough to go abroad, not living in protected post codes. With places not expanding, its a zero sum game.

I heard most of the students in some STEM courses in IC and UCL are foreigners now.

I think describing an article from over 6 years ago as "recently" published is a stretch. At best.

You are right @TizerorFizz

2017 is s long time ago. I was looking for an article that I read in the paper version, and didn’t notice the year. This is the article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/foreign-student-boom-puts-middle-class-places-at-risk-c7m2rz9b0

Half the students at a couple of art universities my daughter is looking at (in London) are international students. They pay over £23k/year. Hard to turn down.