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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

No need for aspirational uni - getting a 2.1 more important?

41 replies

Armyuni · 01/05/2023 23:33

DS wants to go to uni and then join the army. He’s been to army recruitment centre and they said that he will need a 2.1 to get onto the officer training programme he aspires to. His school have told him to apply to 2 aspirational unis, 2 realistic and 1 ultra-safe. But what is the point of him applying to aspirational unis - if he just about makes the entry grades, there will be loads of students who have surpassed them so that will make it more difficult to get a 2.1 as he will be judged against his peers at that Uni? Or am I wrong in this? Is it not better to be realistic or play safe seeing as getting the 2.1 is paramount?

OP posts:
Sprogonthetyne · 01/05/2023 23:42

A 2:1 is the same difficulty wherever he gets it, really he should look at courses that intrest him most. Also 3 years is a long time at 18, so there's no garentee he will still even want to join the army by the time he graduates.

He should aim for the best degree he can, the army isn't going to turn him down if he surpasses their requirements, but he might fine he locks himself out of other options (either insted or after) if he only aims for the minimum requirement.

FuzzyDonkey · 01/05/2023 23:46

I have some feelings about this one as someone who went to a top university many years ago now (everyone else on my course was privately educated except for me and maybe 1-2 others, and I missed a 2.1 by 1%). I saw my school mates who had got pretty mediocre A-levels (think a C and two Ds) get a first on their courses at lowly ranked unis and then be able to get onto graduate schemes etc when I was unable to. I can't say going to a top uni opened any doors, in retrospect, and my top-grade A-levels seemed to mean nothing afterwards. I sort of wished I had gone to one of those average unis and smashed it academically.

It does seem that unis are quite averse to giving out anything below a 2.1 these days, but unless he is very motivated to study, I might consider the more realistic ones rather than the aspirational ones.

FuzzyDonkey · 01/05/2023 23:49

Sprogonthetyne · 01/05/2023 23:42

A 2:1 is the same difficulty wherever he gets it, really he should look at courses that intrest him most. Also 3 years is a long time at 18, so there's no garentee he will still even want to join the army by the time he graduates.

He should aim for the best degree he can, the army isn't going to turn him down if he surpasses their requirements, but he might fine he locks himself out of other options (either insted or after) if he only aims for the minimum requirement.

I'm sorry but I jut don't think this is true! I don't think someone who gets a 2.1 at a second rate uni could sit the same exams at Oxbridge and get the same grade there.

For reference, I did my master's at a slightly lesser ranked university (maybe the top 3rd in the country rather than the top 5) many years later and straight away was getting distinctions in my assignments. Those who had been awarded a first at the same university just months prior were struggling to get merit grades on their first few assignments.

Armyuni · 01/05/2023 23:50

@FuzzyDonkey yes, every word of what you say

OP posts:
Armyuni · 01/05/2023 23:53

@FuzzyDonkey cross-posted. Agree with every word of your second post too. It is absolutely NOT the case @Sprogonthetyne that a 2.1 is the same difficulty wherever you go. DS elder sibling is at Oxbridge and on course for a 2.1 - it would be a first in most unis!

OP posts:
Armyuni · 01/05/2023 23:57

“He should aim for the best degree he can”

yes - he needs a 2.1 so is thinking that he is more likely to get it at a mid-ranked uni rather than top flight.

OP posts:
JellyBabiesSaveLives · 02/05/2023 00:19

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed
This is a few years old now. But 22% of students at Lincoln got a first, compared to 33% at Cambridge. Lincoln will take you with 3 Cs. The top 22% at Lincoln surely cannot be reaching the same standard as the top 33% at Cambridge?

Admittedly, Lincoln struck me as being very focused on providing good teaching, and nurturing struggling students, so less academic students may make more progress there than somewhere like Nottingham where they are very focused on their research, and know that their A-grade intake will manage. If you scrape into an "aspirational" choice, surely the teaching will be aimed at people who are mostly cleverer than you?

OP, I think your ds should pick a uni that he can comfortably get into with his predicted grades.

Universities with biggest shares of 2:1s and firsts revealed

Latest Hesa data on degree classification shows where increase in top grades was highest in 2016-17

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed

Armyuni · 02/05/2023 00:33

Thanks @JellyBabiesSaveLives - I agree. I think this idea of aspirational unis (pushed by schools as they have to report on numbers attending RG unis) is a nonsense. Far better to be at a realistic choice where you won’t be struggling to keep up with the rest of the cohort (and will be less likely to get a 2.1).

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TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 00:52

@Armyuni
All RG are not equal though! It really depends on subject. For some subjects, non RG are in top 10. Especially if a subject is not offered at many RG, eg sports science. So are these degrees easier? There’s no guarantee that a lower ranked uni is easier if the teaching style doesn’t suit or the options! Choose a bit more wisely than a blanket belief in what’s easy. Hopefully army people are up for a challenge!

Where do you consider Bath, Loughborough, Lancaster and St Andrews to sit? Not RG but competitive to get into. RG plus!

diian · 02/05/2023 06:58

All of my nieces and nephews have got Firsts in their university degrees:
Northampton (geography) Alevel grades CDE, Sheffield Hallam (Engineering) CCD, Anglia Ruskin (Nursing) Astar BB.
They have all gone on to get excellent jobs; the first two grad jobs with top companies.
There is no way a first from Northampton is equivalent to a first, or even a 2:1, from Oxbridge. DN is the first to admit he is not an academic.
OP go to where he feels comfortable. DD is at a top uni and is working so much harder than her peers at middle ranked universities. They are having more fun too and not spending 3 years of their life in the library.

PerpetualOptimist · 02/05/2023 07:08

OP, if your DS is not already aware, the Uniguide website provides summary stats on the percentage achieving 2:1 and above by broad course type by uni (eg all history courses at uni of x). This can vary more widely than you might expect within and well as across similar types of uni.

Uniguide also has info on typical A-levels and average grades on entry so your DS can cross-check where, roughly, he might sit academically within his cohort.

Ultimately he needs a blend of some positive academic stretch and a uni environment where he is likely to be happy and thrive (and so do better academically as well as be able to fully participate in non-academic activities); so there are quite a few factors at play and to be considered.

bguthb90 · 02/05/2023 08:40

+1 for the Uniguide website.

In addition to what @PerpetualOptimist said, it also gives an indication of the breakdown of UK vs International students per course per university which, as some of us have realised with our DC this year, is a real factor to be aware of.

Admissions metrics are also worth googling for - to see the % of applicants vs offers for specific courses/universities, again, these are usually broken down into UK and International metrics.

Finally, depending on the course and the universities being considered, "two aspirational choices" needs to be considered very carefully. These threads and TSR threads are littered with applicants this year with 3/4 A stars - predicted or achieved - who received rejections from the top RG universitiew

helpmyskinplease · 02/05/2023 09:11

I work in a related field. A 2:1 is certainly not the same everywhere. Recent research (can't remember but think it was commissioned by the Trussell Trust) has shown that children from less advantaged backgrounds who went to a 'lesser' Uni and got a higher grade degree went on to do better in their careers/earnings than those who aimed for 'better' unis but came out with lower degrees.

gogohmm · 02/05/2023 09:22

Select the university he likes the course and setting the best that's in his grade range ... if that's at the upper end that's fine, but enjoying the course and liking the setting is important. I would check to see which have university squadrons based there as that will really help prepare for sandhurst. It's changed a bit from DD's day but the squadrons often covered more than one university, and bonus, they got paid for doing stuff!

titchy · 02/05/2023 09:26

He may change his mind...

Armyuni · 02/05/2023 12:56

@gogohmm thank you v much for the link to the OTC - that is definitely a factor worthy of consideration!

@PerpetualOptimist @bguthb90 excellent idea to look at Uniguide. Out of interest, what is the issue with international students?

OP posts:
bguthb90 · 02/05/2023 14:01

@Armyuni It's not an issue with the international students themselves - it's that some universities favour international applicants for some courses quite considerably more than they do UK students.

For example, from UniGuide, for Accounting and Finance (A&F) student breakdown is:

Durham: 37% UK, 63% International
Exeter: 31% UK, 69% International

and for Computer Science:

UCL: 42% UK, 58% International
Bristol: 46% UK, 54% International

and then, from Durham's Admissions metrics for 2021

Economics:
-305 offers made from 1055 UK applicants (29%)
-565 offers made from 705 International applicants (80%)

Government/International Affairs
-240 offers made from 750 UK applicants (32%)
-390 offers made from 455 International applicants (86%)

It's maybe just a trend at the higher-ranking universities, but it's definitely worth knowing about / knowing data sources to research when selecting options.

https://www.durham.ac.uk/media/durham-university/study/study---undergraduate/how-to-apply/documents/Applications-receiving-offer-2020-21.pdf

poetryandwine · 02/05/2023 17:01

Our School is considered ‘upper Russell Group’ in our discipline. Once, to help me calibrate my assistance for a transfer who had failed Y1 Oxbridge, their tutor sent me a copy of Y1 exams. Most of our Y1-Y3 students would unquestionably have failed them. By the end of Y2 all of our students allegedly know all the material, but the questions were far too sophisticated.

So yes, degrees differ substantially.

BTW there can be an issue with English language skills for International students. It is possible to cram for the English language qualification and then regress. This can affect academic performance, particularly in certain disciplines. English Language/Writing Centres used to offer great resources, with variable uptake, but many have been victims of recent cutbacks.

TinfoilTangerine · 02/05/2023 17:43

Hi OP
As well as the good advice you've already had from pp, don’t worry too much about where your son sits in the cohort at the start. There isn't always that much of a link between the grades a student joins university with, and whether they are top/ middle or bottom of their year group when they graduate.

WombatChocolate · 02/05/2023 21:43

It’s worrying though isn’t it. The fact that there’s no standardisation, yet some job or grad scheme opportunities are closed to some who went to unis which were much harder to achieve the required degree classification from.

I know there’s a move amongst some firm to degree classification - blind applications, or university attended blind applications. However, it’s hard to see that all academic qualification can be ignored or should be ignored. I fully understand that the experience and letter of application are a vital part too.

We encourage our DC to work hard, to aim for the best GCSEs they can get, best A Levels, best uni, best degree. We probably also encourage them to gain as much experience as poss and to make themselves more competitive in all the ways possible. But then the suggestion is that these achievements are ignored or irrelevant.

Perhaps it’s precisely because often it’s parents who have encouraged the kids to do these things, and not all kids have this encouragement or access to equal opportunities. I get that. But equally, some less advantaged students work hard and are motivated and it seems like their achievements are dismissed too.

What is it that employers are looking at when they recruit?
Are those with the top academic qualifications more likely to perform well on the aptitude tests grad schemes use? Are they more likely to be able to answer the scenario questions etc? I assume there is still a strong correlation between those who’ve been academically successful and those who do get recruited…but maybe I’m wrong.

Armyuni · 02/05/2023 23:38

Thanks to all who linked to the Uni OTC site. So helpful because it has enabled us to knock a few unis off our shortlist - where travel time to OTC training would clash with probable lectures (eg, Uni of Leicester - training is in Nottingham and they have to leave at 3pm every Weds). So we now have our shortlist of 5 unis - Exeter, Nottingham, Lancaster, Liverpool (all realistic) and Cardiff as insurance (publish ABB but take lower - thanks to those who recommended DiscoverUni - DS and I checked it out today). The next tier below take BCC (DS predicted ABB we think) and, while he doesn’t want a “stretch” (hence ruling out Durham, Bristol, StA, Newcastle etc) it’s just too low. He will be studying Modern Languages btw. So grateful for your input and advice - particularly OTC and DiscoverUbi for actual grades

OP posts:
Holidayhunters · 03/05/2023 02:16

Sprogonthetyne · 01/05/2023 23:42

A 2:1 is the same difficulty wherever he gets it, really he should look at courses that intrest him most. Also 3 years is a long time at 18, so there's no garentee he will still even want to join the army by the time he graduates.

He should aim for the best degree he can, the army isn't going to turn him down if he surpasses their requirements, but he might fine he locks himself out of other options (either insted or after) if he only aims for the minimum requirement.

This is the most misguided advice ever. Ignore OP. Degrees are not equal AT ALL!

Armyuni · 03/05/2023 02:31

TizerorFizz · 02/05/2023 00:52

@Armyuni
All RG are not equal though! It really depends on subject. For some subjects, non RG are in top 10. Especially if a subject is not offered at many RG, eg sports science. So are these degrees easier? There’s no guarantee that a lower ranked uni is easier if the teaching style doesn’t suit or the options! Choose a bit more wisely than a blanket belief in what’s easy. Hopefully army people are up for a challenge!

Where do you consider Bath, Loughborough, Lancaster and St Andrews to sit? Not RG but competitive to get into. RG plus!

I have not mentioned RG in my posts. Couldn’t give a damn about it tbh. Why you bringing it up? So boring (and snobby) that always mentioned on MN. DS needs a 2.1 from ANY uni to fulfil his dream of graduate (army) scheme.

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