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Uni of Edinburgh not marking dissertations/final pieces of work - anyone else's DC affected?

359 replies

Iliketulips · 28/04/2023 19:16

DD heard this afternoon that her dissertation and final pieces of work are not to be marked by Uni of Edinburgh. She is absolutely devastated right now as she wanted her true degree result and feedback on hours of work. She feels her most recent work is the best, so will never know if she could have got her grade up. Moving forward she was seriously considering studying a masters abroad abroad and also working abroad, but now uncertain if that's possible as she thinks they'll wanted an athenticated degree.

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Shivermetimbers0112 · 24/06/2023 20:35

@poetryandwine The objections were purely ideological, which is why I get somewhat irate about these things. As someone wise once said I suspect we have more in common than that that divides us. I agree that HEIs are better for having a wide range of disciplines, but there has been a serious over-recruitment of PhD students in the humanities particularly and we’re all complicit in that. The 50% participation rate was well-intended but ultimately unfair on students and the sector, and I say that as someone who is a perfect example of the need for widening participation.

MatureStudentToBeMaybe · 25/06/2023 11:39

Isn't the issue that UCU will not accept a reduction in student numbers or anything that leads to redundancies?

I find the UCU position very challenging as they are demanding a 12+% payrise across all universities, even those in deficit, and calling additional strike action where institutions are proposing redundancies.

Funds may well have been misspent, I guess this is the justification for paying "market rate" for a vice chancellor who in theory will understand which investments will long term raise revenue. The unfortunate reality is that what is done is done and universities now need to move forward with the hand they have partially dealt themselves.

I can't see any viable action the universities can take until UCU drop one of their constraints (or the government intervenes):

  1. Common pay scale
  2. 12% or more than inflation pay rise ( 5-8% has been rejected)
  3. No redundancies

This means the other fights are stalling too.

whatsofunnyaboutpeaceloveandunderstanding · 25/06/2023 16:20

As others have said, students/parents would have a very good case against universities if they were to appeal or take legal action. Not least because of the uneven and unfair impact - which many folk have pointed to in this thread. This is not just as a result of some staff participating in the boycott and some not, but because universities have changed their regulations in reaction to the boycott (so that students can graduate even if missing marks/credits) and then applied their changed regulations very unevenly. Some Exam Boards have awarded degrees when 40 credits are missing, some haven’t; some have awarded degrees when 60 credits are missing, some seem to have accepted dissertations marked by someone other than the supervisor, others haven't. So there are many many examples of inequality and unfairness. Also, the University of Edinburgh did not conduct an Equality Impact Assessment on the changed regulations, which in Scotland it is required to do by law.

Usually (at least at UoE) students sign a contract on matriculation which states that the university will not refund any fees in cases of industrial action (which it classes as an event beyond its control, which is questionable). There are good grounds to argue that today's crisis is different because the unfairness is caused not just by strikes but by how the university has responded.

whatsofunnyaboutpeaceloveandunderstanding · 25/06/2023 16:22

Sorry, that post above was supposed to be a reply to @Lismore !
I forgot to quote.

lieselotte · 25/06/2023 16:47

This is not a stand off between lecturers and their students. Students and staff alike are being treated extremely poorly by university management and UCEA. That's the point on which people should more aptly direct their anger

I don't disagree. I can't remember what the pension "reforms" were now, but I know they were very unfair. But why are the lecturers directing their anger at the students?

Refusing to lecture is one thing. Refusing to mark end of degree assessments and destroy someone's life chances (see also Brexit for destroying young peoples' life chances) is quite another.

And while a university cannot act locally, it can aim to reduce the damage. Sexism in academia is rife and part of the problem. You don't need national agreements to deal with that.

Time for HE to be properly funded, get rid of tuition fees and introduce a (small) graduate tax. A civilised country aims for a well educated workforce (and it is also an economic necessity). But in the meantime the students need their results.

I also think students unions need to advocate on this issue and stop trying to cancel speakers.

lieselotte · 25/06/2023 16:49

Usually (at least at UoE) students sign a contract on matriculation which states that the university will not refund any fees in cases of industrial action (which it classes as an event beyond its control, which is questionable)

Such terms, if they do exist in university contracts, are not enforceable. A university cannot contract out of its obligations. Industrial action of your own workforce is not an action beyond your control.

lieselotte · 25/06/2023 16:49

(and that is UK wide law, so applies in Scotland as much as in England and Wales)

Xenia · 25/06/2023 21:20

The Competition and Markets Authority has some guidance essentially saying students are "consumers" and consumer law including the law on unfair terms in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply to them.

The first legal case (for a time a bit further back) is against UCL for a start. https://studentgroupclaim.co.uk/

If that is not stopped in its tracks by the courts the other cases will follow.

Home - Student Group Claim

We are helping thousands of students claim fair financial compensation for the disruption through no win, no fee group court claims.

https://studentgroupclaim.co.uk

Whoiscomingtosaveyou · 26/06/2023 06:17

Oakbeam · 23/06/2023 19:45

They have a much better deal than many in the private sector.

They are in the private sector.

I said this a wile back and I was told very firmly that their jobs are considered to be public sector because of some arrangement universities have with the government.

SunnyEgg · 26/06/2023 06:23

Xenia · 25/06/2023 21:20

The Competition and Markets Authority has some guidance essentially saying students are "consumers" and consumer law including the law on unfair terms in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 apply to them.

The first legal case (for a time a bit further back) is against UCL for a start. https://studentgroupclaim.co.uk/

If that is not stopped in its tracks by the courts the other cases will follow.

I’m not sure of how likely this is to win but it’s interesting. I’m also wondering how the universities will fare if they are liable for money back.

I hope not another gov bail out.

poetryandwine · 26/06/2023 10:08

@Oakbeam and @Whoiscomingtosaveyou

Universities are currently classified by ONS as charities or non-profits serving the household sector. They are sometimes less formally characterised as public, insofar as they receive regularised government funding. Equally they are sometimes characterised as private sector in that they are not government run.

Later this year ONS plans to re-examine this classification. Last year it reclassified FE colleges as public sector and DfE imposed new controls. It will be interesting to see what happens with the universities classification.

poetryandwine · 26/06/2023 10:09

informally classified as public sector, I meant

Xenia · 26/06/2023 10:55

It also depends on the context. I think for Freedom of Information Act 2000 purposes universities are classed as public sector and the FOIA applies to them (it does not apply to the public sector). For publice procurement law I believe it applies to universities too ie they must advertise contracts for tender. I think the test under some but not all pieces of legislation depends on if more than 50% of your funding comes from the state.

However their pensions are a bit like teachers ie more than just state pension which is the basic minimum many in the private sector get and that kind of thing.

Whatever their status the lecturers are very mean to cause so many problems to 21 year olds who have spent a life getting to the point of graduation.

cyclamenqueen · 26/06/2023 18:28

The USS is different from the TPS in that the TPS is a statutory scheme and the USS is not.

SunnyEgg · 26/06/2023 19:01

The not quite public sector nor private or newly private but heavily unionised is a difficult place for some sectors when they strike

Unlike a more monopolistic public sector service customers can go elsewhere. Rail, post and universities end up damaging their own income stream

Oakbeam · 26/06/2023 20:19

Rail, post and universities end up damaging their own income stream

It would be interesting to know to what extent universities rely on income from undergraduate teaching. Do they make any money from it at all?

Gettingthroughtheweek · 26/06/2023 20:54

Rather like the boycott, this thread seems to be trying to tackle the big issues. The problem is there seems to be no quick solution - but it’s an immediate problem. How long will our DC have to wait to graduate and get some return on the time, effort and money they have put into their academic studies?

Edinburgh isn't even giving provisional degrees in my DS subject area so he has nothing to put on paper to show for the last four years. What a broken system it is. Why would anyone want to start at Edinburgh uni when they can’t graduate? I’m sure word will quickly get round the international student body - and they will go elsewhere. As I think would my DS if he had known then what he knows now.

whatsofunnyaboutpeaceloveandunderstanding · 26/06/2023 21:33

The louder students and parents complain, the quicker the resolution.

Hopes seem to be a little higher today with the VC of York, who used to be at Edinburgh, putting out this statement: https://wonkhe.com/blogs/a-shared-perspective-on-pay-and-conditions/

A shared perspective on pay and conditions | Wonkhe

The UCU branch executive at the University of York and York vice chancellor Charlie Jeffery jointly seek a way forward on pay and conditions

https://wonkhe.com/blogs/a-shared-perspective-on-pay-and-conditions

sendsummer · 27/06/2023 10:50

but there has been a serious over-recruitment of PhD students in the humanities particularly and we’re all complicit in that

These PhD students have provided cheap teaching at sone universities including Oxbridge as well as contribute to research profile so this is an economically sound decision by the universities. All PhD and postdoc posts (including STEM) should however have the equivalent of a health warning against false expectations for a senior academic career.

Chrysanthemum5 · 27/06/2023 11:13

Oakbeam · 26/06/2023 20:19

Rail, post and universities end up damaging their own income stream

It would be interesting to know to what extent universities rely on income from undergraduate teaching. Do they make any money from it at all?

No they make no money from UG teaching and the deficit is covered by international student fees, some by research income etc.

poetryandwine · 27/06/2023 12:32

@sendsummer I am not sure whether you are reinforcing or debating the point made by @Shivermetimbers0112 (or something else entirely).

You are both right, and this recruitment decision is exploitative: good for the universities and bad for the PhD students. Some would want the experience regardless of employment prospects but many would not.

SerafinasGoose · 27/06/2023 12:57

I realized this thread has been thoroughly depressing me, and have stayed well away from it for a while. It's dispiriting enough having to cope with the atmosphere in the work place, which has been incredibly divisive and unpleasant since the MAB was called, but being called names and accused of deliberately sabotaging students on this thread was entirely voluntary. I'm engaging with no more of that.

I have unapologetically supported the action - with reservations - to date. In the last ballot I would have voted 'No', but a turn of events she brought about put paid to that. My own position is ambivalent. In principle am very pro-Union - in the university I work in it makes sense to be - and my local branch is strong, knowledgeable, and a godsend for more reasons than one.

I wish I could say as much for national, in particular the General Secretary, who I've complained elsewhere on the HE boards is unfit for post. It seems I'm far from alone in this view. It's in no small part her mismanagement of this whole dispute that's landed us in this impasse. She has an unfortunate ability to take simple ideas, toss them in a bowl of indecipherable word-salad whilst trotting out her interminable catchphrase 'let me be crystal clear' (she's anything but), and make them far more complicated than they ever needed to be.

Her first cock-up was the four fights. Pay and conditions, and a more simplified request in relation to that, has all the bases covered. She's muddied the water and made it less than clear what was actually being asked for. Another blunder was the disaggregated ballots. That meant some universities took a massive pay hit for striking to benefit those who didn't meet the 50% threshold, many of which were in the USS scheme (this was her chief concern) whilst the striking institutions were not.

There was fury amongst members when she stood down strike action in March, thus undoing a lot of the momentum gained thus far. Members were not consulted, but were asked to agree to it in an online poll subsequently. Members said 'piss off', and rightly so.

Grady wanted to call off this action when she'd got what she wanted: a significant backtrack in the raiding of the USS pension scheme. The members she'd sold short, many of who were in the striking institutions said 'get lost, you're not throwing us under the bus as we've sacrificed the most and stand to gain nothing from this'. Individual branches started petitioning her. There was a vote to continue action - which she didn't want to do - and she lost.

This dispute might have been resolved under the terms currently offered had it not been for her shenanigans. We are now well into sunk costs fallacy, and people are disinclined to give in when they've already sacrificed so much and it's cost them thousands in lost pay.

Hence we saw the MAB. Her mandate only has a limited period still to run.

Frankly, I think we are at a stalemate. The Tories are now saying they'll nix any pay increase offers for the public sector (we'll call it that, for sake of argument) despite the fact they've been taking real-term pay cuts for in excess of a decade. But that's the Tories. You'd expect as much.

The VC of the University of York is currently appealing to UCEA to sit back down at the negotiating table. That's the one piece of good news this week.

In the meantime, to say the HE system isn't in a horrendous mess is nothing short of wrong. Humanities are taking the biggest hit. There are redundancies, VSS schemes, and slashed courses everywhere. Some subject groups are practically running on a skeleton staff everywhere. In the meantime, those same institutions are throwing up shiny new buildings (admittedly from a different budget but they're not broke as they like to claim) and even opening new campuses.

AI, digital media and anything relating to sustainability and climate change are taking over the more classical subject disciplines we've been used to. And I see the standard of undergraduate writing. Dumbing down is a fact.

We had one of the best HE systems in the world. We've blown it.

SerafinasGoose · 27/06/2023 12:59

The 'she' referred to in my second paragraph is the General Secretary, BTW.

Oakbeam · 27/06/2023 13:16

The Tories are now saying they'll nix any pay increase offers for the public sector (we'll call it that, for sake of argument

It doesn’t really matter what you call it. As far as I am aware, unlike government departments and agencies, the Tories have no direct control over what salaries universities choose to pay their staff.

SerafinasGoose · 27/06/2023 13:20

Oakbeam · 27/06/2023 13:16

The Tories are now saying they'll nix any pay increase offers for the public sector (we'll call it that, for sake of argument

It doesn’t really matter what you call it. As far as I am aware, unlike government departments and agencies, the Tories have no direct control over what salaries universities choose to pay their staff.

That is true. But shoving their political oar in won't exactly help the cause.