GCSE grades and Oxbridge, how much does it matter?

[TokyoBouncyBall]

DD has what schools call 'a spiky profile'. She is very able, particularly in language based subjects but has ADHD and probable although undiagnosed dyscalculia.

She's doing exceptionally well in what will be her A Level subjects and has the potential to get A*s across the board. She's aiming for Linguistics at Uni and has already (in Yr11) read widely, listens to linguistics podcasts has entered the Linguistics Olympiad, is aiming to study in a bilingual city during the sixth form and wants to learn a Scandinavian language as a back up for historical linguistics. So, quite able and driven, borderline eccentric.

But her GCSE are going to be a mixed bag, with 6s and 7s in maths and science which she doesn't care for and finds harder.

She's not dead set on Oxbridge at the moment as she has yet to research the courses, but in advance of any questions, I'd like to know how much the GCSEs would affect an application for Linguistics . Because if she has no chance, then we won't encourage her. But it seems bananas that not getting a 9 in physics might debar her or stop her getting an interview (where I think she would do quite well, although of course I am biased).

Can any experienced people advise?

As a general point, you can't do Linguistics at Oxbridge other than as an option within an MFL (modern Foreign Language) degree, or at postgrad level. She'd need to be prepared to do all the usual translation, literature, oral/listening etc at least for the first year, also a year abroad.

Edinburgh, on the other hand, offers pure linguistics undergraduate degrees.

You might find this very recent thread insightful
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4776082-is-there-a-minimum-gcse-score-for-oxbridge-etc?page=2&reply=125153831

@PettsWoodParadise Thank you, it pretty much answers what I need to know - she seems very similar to one other child on there who got in.

And @ChocChipHandbag that is what she will be applying for I was just trying to simplify my post! She is v much up for a year abroad...

As a general point, you can't do Linguistics at Oxbridge other than as an option within an MFL (modern Foreign Language) degree, or at postgrad level.

Just fyi Oxford offer PPL, Psychology, Philosophy and Linguistics - people generally study two of the three, so as an undergrad you can do Psychology and Linguistics or Philosophy and Linguistics.

You might be interested to know that I just read on another thread that MFL might be slightly easier to get into Oxbridge for than many other subjects as it's getting less popular.

I did it at Cambridge a long time ago, with the linguistics options. Good luck to her, she sounds passionate!

Interesting!

This is not first hand information, so happy to be corrected by those who know more about linguistics than me, but my understanding is that at degree level at Oxford there is an interface between physics and linguistics. Not saying that you have to be an A* physicist to have a chance at linguistics, but if your DD strongly dislikes physics, it might be worth her doing some research on how much physics will crop up in a linguistics degree.

I'm so sorry, my knowledge is totally out of date, Cambridge do offer undergrad linguistics now (as well as linguistics as a Part II option in MML).

www.mmll.cam.ac.uk/undergraduates/linguistics

From the Oxford website:
GCSEs will be taken in to account when we consider your application but they are just one aspect that we look at. GCSE results will be considered alongside your personal statement, academic reference, predicted grades and performance in any written work or written test required for your course.
If you are shortlisted, your performance in interviews will also be taken into account.
Higher grades at GCSE can help to make your application more competitive, and successful applicants typically have a high proportion of 7,8 and 9 grades. However, we do look at GCSE grades in context.
If you feel that you did less well in your GCSEs than you might otherwise have done because of extenuating circumstances, you may still be able to make a competitive application. Examples would include disruption caused by change of school or system, severe discontinuity of teachers, bereavement, and debilitating illness.
We take care to treat each application individually and would always take such extenuating circumstances into account, if they are brought to our attention. You may like to mention any such circumstances in your personal statement, and your referee should make sure to mention them clearly in their reference.
If for any reason this is not possible, then we would advise you to contact the college you applied to (or are assigned to if making an open application) once they are likely to have received your application. This is likely to be around the end of October.
For those who were due to take GCSEs in 2020 and 2021, we will take into account the difficult circumstances in which these grades were issued when we assess your application. Please follow our advice about personal statements and academic references which we update for each year of entry.
Tutors will want to see how you improve your academic performance after your GCSEs and that you do well in your A-levels or other equivalent qualifications.
We recommend that candidates take those GCSE subjects that they enjoy the most and are confident in achieving good grades in.

For what it's worth my Dd (finalist at Oxford) had everything from 9s to a 6 and a D in her GCSE results. If she had come from a selective private school or grammar they would probably have looked at her GCSEs differently, but they were excellent in the context of her comp.

Is she at a private or state school? Reason I ask is that my DCs independent school do not encourage anyone without straight 9s to apply. They just don’t get offers. This year very few applicants (with 9 or 10 “9s”) got offers. She may be in a better position if she’s at a state.

Although high grades in all GCSEs may not be essential, I imagine a lower grade in Maths would put her at a significant disadvantage regardless of the subject to be studied.

Unfortunately the system doesn't really cater for exceptions like your DC because as a general rule, most bright pupils do tend to have similarly good results across the whole range of GCSEs.

I did however read an article recently that suggested that although rare, some children with discalculia were outperforming in language and writing skills which would back up your DCs experience. It may therefore be worth you getting a diagnosis to provide the 'exceptional' circumstances that could help your application. Your mention of eccentric behaviour could also be an indication that ASD may be a consideration.

Oxford tutor here. Plus my daughter is currently studying a modern language and linguistics. A few 6s and 7s at GCSE in less relevant subjects won't rule her out, depending to some extent on context (school and your post code). They will be looked at together with aptitude tests, interview results, and school predictions/references. Most language students are interviewed as it is one of the courses with fewer applicants per place.

I would say, however, that my daughter's experience is that there is more maths (particularly statistics) and science (how brain works, how sound is produced) in linguistics than you might expect. And generally linguistics requires a very logical brain in a quite mathematical kind of way. Does she really want to do linguistics? She can also just do languages?

Also, contrary to what a previous poster said, at Oxford linguistics is not just an option within modern langages. Either you do PPL (as mentioned) or you do modern languages and linguistics as a joint degree (not the same thing as an option paper within languages).

Agree with those saying there is an overlap/affinity with sciences for a lot of linguistics. When I studied it, it was part of MML but everyone who really specialised in it (ie was doing only core translation and essay for Part II in the foreign language and everything else was linguistics papers) tended to have maths/science as their third a-level rather than eg English. To give you an idea I spent time studying things like the physiology of how we make sounds and endless happy hours in the lab analysing sound waves, formants etc for phonetics. I was probably at the more extreme end of the science but I suspect you can’t dodge it completely at least in the first year.

The extent to which you specialise in the hard core “science” bit’s of linguistics can vary but it’s worth looking in detail at what the mandatory components are.

Thanks everyone this is all really handy.

@Boosterquery @CambiarDelNombre and @mast0650 These are good points, but her interests are very strongly in historical and sociolinguistics and that's going to be the main basis on which she chooses the course, so Oxbridge may not be an option anyway. And she is very logical - she's been doing the Linguistics Olympiad and is pretty good at the papers, because they don't have numbers in them, which is what reminded me that dyscalculia might be at play.

And yes, as per my first point she is very interested in Linguistics not just languages, is doing Eng Lang A level because it is basically entry level linguistics but wants to combine this with French. Or possibly a scandinavian language at UCL.

I hope - as a biased mother - that if she does get an interview she's got a pretty good chance because of that, and also because she is articulate and engaging (and quite funny) and so I think would pass muster as a student you would want to teach.

@Easterbunnywashere I hear you about ASD, and she may be on the fringes of this but most of her neurodiversity is accounted for by ADHD and dyspraxia. She is not stressed by change, will present herself very well in an interview and doesn't go on about linguistics to anyone unless they ask. Idiosyncratic is probably a better word than eccentric, it more involves flouncing about wanting to be David Bowie than anything more indicative.

But - in this case unfortunately - she is at a private school so all of this may be irrelevant. And although I think she would both benefit from and enjoy the individual teaching at Oxbridge that's not the only factor. In some ways given that we are in a small town far corner of the countryside and she is in a private school, she might be better off in somewhere like Manchester for the life experience.

All of which is just me thinking out loud...

Something like this course at Sheffield might be of interest?

https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/slc/research/clusters/linguistics

I would be concerned about poor maths skills for linguistics.

EG 70% of successful candidates for the Cambridge course have Maths A Level: Linguistics | Undergraduate Study (cam.ac.uk)

One option is to wait until she has her A level results before applying. It means a year off but excellent achieved A level grades mean that far less weight is put on GCSEs. It worked for us.

What year is she actually in at the moment? It's very good to look ahead towards university options, but it sounds like she hasn't even taken her GCSEs yet?

I think I would wait until her GCSE grades are known, and you can see how she is actually doing on A-levels before worrying about this too much.

There are a lot of students who do well at GCSE and then struggle with the transition to A-level, so it's really not a given she will get A*s/A grades, either, unfortunately.

And if it's 3-4 years away, entry requirements may change in that time.

I teach a cognate subject at Oxbridge and yes, you can now do an undergraduate Tripos at Cambridge in Linguistics (see the link a pp posted). It should still be more than possible for your DD to end up focusing on sociolinguistics and historical linguistics, but she’s also probably need to cover some of more technical side - she wouldn’t be able to bypass that entirely. Have a look at the paper coverage at the MML link.
https://www.mmll.cam.ac.uk/undergraduates/linguistics
As a small subject, it will be taught mostly at departmental level, so college teaching will be less dominant; but it might be worth her looking for a college where the fellows/DoS are in the more historical/social side of the subject, as they may tend to help support her interests a bit more.

As an interviewer, I can confirm that GCSE subject grades do not have to be across the board high grades. Many of my most successful students (I a slightly different subject) have what you call a “spiky” profile. The admissions decision is made on the candidate in the round, including current study and future potential, not just on GCSE grades. No reason at all why your DD shouldn’t apply!

And yes, as per my first point she is very interested in Linguistics not just languages, is doing Eng Lang A level because it is basically entry level linguistics but wants to combine this with French.

In this case she could also look at the MML Tripos more broadly, including combining MML and Linguistics papers.

List of current available papers here:
https://www.mmll.cam.ac.uk/linguistics

Indeed the department in Cambridge is now known as MMLL in fact

@Ellmau This may not be the place for her then - and @MarchingFrogs yes, Sheffield is already on the radar. It looks like an excellent course, does anyone know more?

@Aethelthryth Interesting thought. Might suit her and she could do a year abroad and get another language under her belt (this is one of her aims).

@Postapocalypticcowgirl I hear you, but at the moment, for a variety of reasons, I think it's reasonable to expect that she will do better in A Levels than in GCSEs, and I think school would agree - they describe her as one of the most able in the year, in a school which regularly gets described as a hothouse.

@nightwakingmoon Thank you - cross post there but that is very reassuring and helpful.

What are your thoughts on the need for maths and/or physics? DD is currently looking at English Lang and Lit, French and Philosophy (which has a theory of language component). In her school they start 4 and drop one, so for her it will be between Eng Lit and Philosophy.

But in some ways, as long as she is not ruled out of interview by her grades, I think that's all we need to know for now. I am fairly confident that DD could go into an interview now and explain, with examples, why she is interested in historical and sociolinguistics and so as long as she gets to do that it's between her and the university as to whether it's the right place for her!