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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

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Medicine 2025 entry

995 replies

HGC2 · 29/03/2023 13:34

Inspired and slightly terrified reading the 2023 entry threads and how much prep has to go into a medicine application!

DC wants to do medicine, probably in Scotland as a Scottish student, doing well at school but this doesn't seem to be enough! School has little / no experience of applications for medicine as a not fantastic state school!

Can anyone advise what work experience / volunteering they will need (currently volunteering at sports club with hope of job)
what are the spreadsheets that people talk about?
How do you strategically apply?

I have one child at uni and they just applied and got a place, this seems like a whole other level!

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pivoinerose · 22/06/2024 11:29

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 11:25

@pivoinerose Cambridge interview huge numbers.

Of course. I simply said the majority. Cambridge and Oxford are obviously very similar. But Cambridge sets more store by A levels and much less store by GCSEs. Their interviews are much more similar too, although Oxford requires more interviews from each candidate (usually - Cambridge is more college dependent than Oxford).

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 11:33

@pivoinerose F2 not quite finished yet so they'll be no figures (but I believe the BMA are collecting them). First GPs it's easier. Currently out of the 6,000 completing training this year, 2,000 have jobs.
For Junior Fellow jobs there are usually 500+ applicants and some jobs close within 12 hours.

Not sure why you are so sure that Oxbridge and a few other Unis produce better doctors. But you do, and I don't, so we can agree to disagree.

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 11:35

@pivoinerose sorry, it would be good to look at what's happened between 2023 and 2024. Because last year most seemed to get an F3 year with enough hours, or a JF job. This year it's all very thin on the ground. IMGs, PAs replacing them on rotas ? It is a scandal.

AlexanderArnold · 22/06/2024 12:02

Hi all, I have been reading through and learning a lot. Thank you everyone. We are not medics so navigating all this for the first time with our son, who will be applying in September.

Earlier, I was reading about some kids having tutoring for the UCAT through a private school offering this to state schools for their charitable status. I also noted lots of helpful tips like wearing headphones, using number lock etc Having never done this test or anything like it I a worried I can't advise him about all this and would like to find a way of him perhaps having some input.

We have a Medify subscription now. What else can we do to help out son? I'm not aware of anything in person locally. Is there online tuition?

Thank you!

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 12:07

@AlexanderArnold get him to practice for about 4-6 weeks. Speed is the issue for the verbal and numeracy sections. First decision making, it's always putting patient safety first, and for the abstract it's understanding what the possible patterns are. The book is good for this. Nearer the time do the times tests.

Then once he's got his UCAT select 4 Unis where he has the best chance of an interview.

Scoobyblue · 22/06/2024 15:06

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 10:20

@Sloejelly Oxford require AAA. Plymouth A star AA. I assume you believe Plymouth graduates are the superior ones ?

I don't want to get into the argument about which medical schools are best, but just to say that Oxford require A star AA, not AAA in case applicants are looking for a range of offers with the med schools that they apply to.

Needmoresleep · 22/06/2024 15:45

Sloejelly · 21/06/2024 16:26

As the doctors union the BMA has an obvious bias. The health service should not be employing lots of locums - it is a very inefficient way to provide a service. Locums generally cost a lot more than salaried staff. Though if they want a GP position they could move to Scotland. Lots of jobs round here, including some locum ones.

Late to reply to this, though the discussion continues.

All sorts of doctors are taking temporary jobs:

  • my newly retired GP cousin and his wife do cover work for local practices
  • A recent MN thread was about a doctor who had been working for about seven years in a psychiatric hospital in a locum role - ie a role that was needed by never formally established, but who was replaced overnight by a more expensive PA. Budget for them, no budget for a doctor even though they would cheaper and would have vital wider medical knowledge.
  • Doctors completing F2, who need to spend the next year(s) preparing for increasingly competitive exams for further training.
And so on.

I get the "get on yer bike" philosophy but it does not work for everyone. Not for my cousin, nor for the poster who had family commitments and a husband in a non mobile career. Even for "F3s" it is tough. They have probably have had to move for F1/F2, possibly somewhere they did not choose, and indeed may well have to move between F1 and F2. They are mid 20s and some will be wanting to put down roots.

It was a bit of a shock when DDs F1 cohort realised that they might end up unemployed. DD could move again for a "F3" position and recognises that she will be applying countrywide for specialist training. At the moment it does not bother her that she may not be able to settle down until her early 30s but others won't feel the same. A number of her peers went to the local University and have no desire to leave the area.

It is worth knowing about the problems in advance even if they are solved. DD first plans to look for a year's work in the field she wants to specialise in so she can study for the entry exams. She recognises that with the advent of PAs, such a job is more likely to be in Australia, but hey! And if she can't get a job/training back in the UK she presumably stays there. Luckily she also has her intercalation to fall back on. She is confident that she can approach firms in the medical engineering field armed with her engineering and medical degrees, and indeed has already been told by a major research lab to give them a call if she is looking to do a PhD.

(Hence my intercalation point many pages earlier. It provides a second string to the bow in an uncertain world.)

DD has also, slightly oddly, bought a house. She lives in an area where property prices are low and it will probably be a decade before she knows where her future will lie. If she moves, she rents it out, but at least she has a base and a chance to pay off a mortgage even if at the end the capital she builds up is barely enough for a deposit in the South East.

The NHS is a monopsonistic employer, especially for junior doctors. Real thought needs to be given to its aims in relation to training, retaining and motivating staff.

We have been round the block with the "all medical schools are equal" several times over the past few years. Medical schools are different. Oxbridge is a three year academic course followed by clinical. It attracts students wanting some rigorous academics and who like writing essays. Ditto UCL and Imperial have a lot of research going on, and so will attract students who have half an eye on academic medicine. DD found there was a noticeable difference in culture between Imperial and Bristol. (In fairness Bristol have a lot of group working which served her well during her intercalation.) There are super ambitious students elsewhere, but it is surely no surprise that academic, research orientated individuals are strongly represented when you comes to look at top specialists. Then throw in that students will do better where there is a fit between them and the prevailing culture, and it is probably worth applicants thinking about which culture might suit them best.

pivoinerose · 22/06/2024 16:12

Entirely agree Needmoresleep. The different medical schools appear to create a different level of options on the whole for future careers.

As far as your comment about intercalation creating options goes, I noticed in the GMC MLA leaflet there was the following passage: 'If you're considering intercalating, this could mean that you'll return to your medical degree when the MLA is introduced. We encourage you to continue with your plans - intercalation offers the possibility of getting an extra qualification and new experiences to bring to your career. Giving up those benefits to avoid the MLA would be a missed opportunity'.

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 16:37

Apologies. Oxford is now A star AA - used to be AAA.

Just apply to places you like and are likely to get in. You'll end up a doctor and post graduate exams decide the rest.

pivoinerose · 22/06/2024 16:56

Yes but it remained AAA for a while while other universities were at A*AA - I took that to be what you meant.

pivoinerose · 22/06/2024 17:01

If anyone spots any articles or statistics on the current jobs situation for junior doctors, could they possibly post them up for the benefit of those who might miss them? Whether on this thread for current applicants or on a new thread as Sluj suggested.

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 17:04

@pivoinerose I think the BMA is collating stuff so keep an eye on their Twitter.

pivoinerose · 22/06/2024 17:08

Ok good idea. But still could perhaps be of value to share here for those who don't follow Twitter either at all or not necessarily at the right time? I'm guessing the numbers for this round must be on the cusp of being published?

Sloejelly · 22/06/2024 17:34

All sorts of doctors are taking temporary jobs:

Absolutely, and the BMA exists to support doctors, including those who want to take locum jobs. But if the NHS is run as an efficient organisation, meeting the health needs of the population at an affordable cost, then it can not rely on locums.

ColouringPencils · 22/06/2024 18:05

Haven't caught up with the thread, so apologies if someone has said this, wanted to share before I forget. We went to Sheffield open day today. Their admissions process is in a series of thresholds.
First, meet their threshold for academic results and then they do not look at your academics again (for most people, 5x7s at GCSE, predicted 3xA at A level).
Then, meet their minimum UCAT score (can't remember but it's on the website).
Next, they rank all UCATs above the threshold and invite the top 1000 to interview. After that, they don't look at your UCAT again.
Everyone who gets to interview is assessed 100 percent on interview. They will make 600 offers for just under 300 spaces.
They do not look at PS ever (v emphatic about this). They don’t look at references until they are about to make offers, and then it is only to make sure you don't have a negative reference. They said this is because everyone writes the same thing in PS and the overwhelming majority of references are glowing.
They are not interested in supercurriculars, but are interested in extra curriculars (at interview), because they want you to become a good colleague and not burn out. They don't care what it is you like to do in your free time, but want to know you have free time and use it.

We had a very good day and really liked the place. My DD is a bit disheartened about the process as she thinks she won't be that good at interview. Not sure if it is the norm for final offers to be based 100 percent on interview? I do understand their logic though, if they have so many meeting the academic threshold.

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 18:36

@ColouringPencils I love Sheffield. Fab course and v clear and open about their process.

Tell your DD she is good enough. MMIs just need you to speak and listen. It's not so much what you say, but the fact that you can talk - and listen when needed. And the SJT counts as one station so good if get a 1. Do know why Sheffield though, and a bit about the city, as they will be asked.

mumsneedwine · 22/06/2024 18:37

@ColouringPencils sorry, meant to add that most places base it 100% on interview.

UEA don't. They use 50% UCAT and 50% interview, so if have a fab UCAT but think interviews won't go as well it's a good choice. Great course too.

Notcontent · 22/06/2024 19:52

@ColouringPencils my dd is really not a very confident person or super eloquent speaker so she was concerned about the interview process and I was a bit worried for her. But she ended up with 3 offers. The most important thing is to do lots of preparation - if you know what you are talking about, it will show, even if you sound nervous. First research and then do lots of practice.

SkillDuggery · 22/06/2024 19:53

@ColouringPencils We love Sheffield! Great university, so friendly, seems to really care about its students.

It attracts students wanting some rigorous academics and who like writing essays

@Needmoresleep that's overly simplistic and comes across to me as not entirely objective. I doubt every med student there likes writing essays, it’s just a necessary part of being there.

Many students will want to go to Oxford because of its unique (other than Cambridge) collegiate system, and the town, and the things it offers outside of medicine. And some will want the international reputation it offers. So if they have to write essays to get that, so be it.

Needmoresleep · 22/06/2024 20:05

I don't disagree with you. I was trying to keep a long post as short as possible, and have no particular iron in the fire. Obviously Oxford and Cambridge have a huge academic culture, and students there work very hard indeed. Leaving clinical for the final three years allows more focus on academics in the first three. Add in essay writing, tutors, the college system and the automatic intercalation and it is a different experience to, say, Central Lancashire. Which graduates make the better doctors is to a large part up to the individual, and the other attributes they offer, and indeed what sort of job they are in. However I think it is fair to say that Oxbridge suits some students and will not suit others. (True actually of Oxbridge in general; some love it, others don't.)

HGC2 · 22/06/2024 20:29

So while the info on f1 and f2 is interesting, let’s bring it back to where we are now. UCAT and higher results are looming here, in some ways it might be a blessing ahead of applying, knowing if the requirements are met at least so far!

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Sloejelly · 22/06/2024 21:01

Can’t remember which Scottish uni it was but DC reported back from open day that they scored academics/UCAT/interviews (different weightings) and offered places based on overall scores. So academics/UCAT still mattered even after interview. Again PS not considered.

In many ways it is not surprising PS are not considered regardless of apparent uniformity. They are sifting through huge numbers so the time it would take to read PS is significant. I amazes me how much resources must be dedicated to interviewing 1000 candidates.

Groundhogday2021 · 22/06/2024 21:23

Have been reading this thread with interest as was in a similar position this time last year.

With regards to UCAT, I just wanted to reassure some of you with kids in Year 12 and sitting the test this year that it doesn’t really matter when they sit the test… I think someone said up thread that the earlier the better in terms of success? This was not the experience we had and so don’t worry if you can’t book a slot until later in the cycle. It really is about peaking at the right time and the very reason why some have said that it is very possible to ‘over’ prepare.

Dd did about 3/4 weeks of practice using Medify and targeted areas that she felt she was weaker on initially. Within the last 2 weeks before the test she sat a mock exam (2 hours) through Medify every single day for 14 days consecutively. Her scores increased within the last 3 or 4 mocks and she ended up with a score in the top 1 % on the day. She was too busy over the summer so booked UCAT for mid September (she never wanted to do BMAT anyway), not that it matters now for this year obviously. With a high UCAT score she then applied strategically (thanks to mumsneedwine 😊) and received 4 interviews. Had she had a lower UCAT score then obviously she would have chosen different medical schools that suited her strengths but it really is all about that test score right now. Timing is a major issue and so the mocks were really helpful in getting her timing right.

Best of luck to those with dc sitting it this year 🍀

HGC2 · 22/06/2024 21:24

yes in Scotland the best you’ll get even after interview, is a conditional offer, advanced highers are required for all

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SkillDuggery · 22/06/2024 23:31

Wow @Groundhogday2021 that’s an amazing result by your DD!

My DC has ADHD and a real concern is them misreading the Q when having to be fast and not necessarily having the time to go back and check everything, although they’ll get extra time which is good of course.