Medicine 2025 entry

[HGC2]

Inspired and slightly terrified reading the 2023 entry threads and how much prep has to go into a medicine application!

DC wants to do medicine, probably in Scotland as a Scottish student, doing well at school but this doesn't seem to be enough! School has little / no experience of applications for medicine as a not fantastic state school!

Can anyone advise what work experience / volunteering they will need (currently volunteering at sports club with hope of job)
what are the spreadsheets that people talk about?
How do you strategically apply?

I have one child at uni and they just applied and got a place, this seems like a whole other level!

Students need to choose a city and course that suits them and their stats fit, it will make absolutely no difference in their chances of speciality training

I wholly agree with this too mumsneedwine.

SoTiredNeedHoliday I thought I was being ticked off by you as your tone was somewhat tart.

SoTiredNeedHoliday you need to dig down a little with the tables.

Hi, reading the conversation about medical school rankings with interest. But replying to @ColouringPencils about open days - DD and I have been to Bristol and Leeds so far. She's going to a couple more with DH at the weekend and then maybe one or two in September (when of course we will have the UCAT score).

For now, she is thinking in terms of where she would like to go (but trying to hold awareness that this may well need revising after the UCAT). We are looking around 'as though' she were applying to a course with more normal acceptance rates. She's not interested in putting down a 5th option and is thinking about gap year options for if things don't work out this year. Her approach is making me slightly nervous, but she's certainly given it plenty of thought and generally has good judgement.

FWIW, both open days were really useful and informative and it was good to chat to students and staff at both places. She (and I) preferred Leeds of the two - really liked the campus, the accommodation, the school of medicine and the people we met there. And they score GCSEs, which works in DD's favour. It will be good to compare some other places as well, and of course the UCAT score will be the major factor in what happens next!

Interesting debate about the effect of 'calibre' of uni on future medical career prospects but perhaps not relevant (or helpful) for those dc currently looking at applying for next year.
Correlation does not equal causation. As Karolinska's ds pointed out, the type of student who goes to Oxford is academically high achieving and has the ability to perform impressively in intensive interviews because that's the Oxbridge selection process. Of course Oxbridge grads are then likely to achieve highly under similar conditions in their future careers. But it isn't Oxford itself that made them that way - they already were! Having Oxford on a medical CV doesn't confer the magic sparkle dust that perhaps it might still in some other professions.
A lot of potential med students with the prerequisite skills avoid Oxford because they don't like the course structure, others avoid it as a 'high risk' choice. They will go on to do equally well in their careers and possibly having had a better med school experience elsewhere at a uni more suited to their own preferences and skills.
TLDR - choose 4 unis based on how likely you are to get an offer and how much you like the course structure and location, not prestige.

This

TLDR - choose 4 unis based on how likely you are to get an offer and how much you like the course structure and location, not prestige.

All. Day.Long.

perhaps not relevant (or helpful) for those dc currently looking at applying for next year

Well yes Haffdonga! But the question about future career progression was asked by the parent of an applicant which is the only reason I weighed in. It wasn't a spontaneous statement out of the blue.

I think that you and I are saying the same thing: the die is to an extent cast at the point of entry to medical school. Which is why I agreed with mumsneedwine's statement to the effect that where you go to medical school won't alter your chances of getting to the top.

I would say that teaching at certain unis is not just different but qualitatively better, and that must help shape a student to some extent. I'm not sure how marginal that is - it shouldn't be too marginal tbh.

What remains a fact is that certain unis seem to have more students getting through the seemingly endless exams and selection processes - and that's something that I think mumsneedwine is maybe missing. It can only be to do with the level of aptitude and ability that tends to be the norm at those unis. Of course and absolutely there must be outliers at every other medical school in the UK - but the concentration will less.

Also - very obvious point - not all junior doctors have any desire to do specialty training let alone be a consultant. And all those doctors are valuable (provided they're competent).

But absolutely - no magic sparkle dust as such. Well put!

Just thought I’d add a bit more. But I don’t plan on posting with this user name frequently ( hopefully not al all, after this), for 2 reasons. First my perimenopausal self might get mixed up and accidentally respond using my ‘known ID’. Second I want to focus on why I’m here to get ( and give general) support for my DC, as it’s been many years since I went through this myself and things have most definitely changed quite a bit.

I think intercalated can offer some advantages in terms of other career options, even speciality options with medicine and can inform interests later in one’s career.

As mentioned the university you go to for medicine offers no advantage, other things mentioned are more important. Getting training posts depend on you demonstrating you are worthy of those posts ( there is a shortage), but also about 20% I believe of medical graduates end up not wanting to practice medicine / emigrate.

I’m not suggesting there is no competition for specialities, but doctors ( like any other professionals), have a varying degree of personality types and interests and I think I can safely say that it’s not very frequent that doctors will end up in a particular specialty because they couldn’t get into the specialty they wanted ( especially if you’ve studied in the Britain). In fact it’s more likely that doctors start a certain specialty and further down the line they decide it’s actually not want they really wanted and then change to another specialty. I have one such trainee that got to ST6, ( one year off potentially becoming a consultant), and has now decided to join my specialty. Most people don’t get that far before they change if they want to, thankfully. This is one of the disadvantages of the run through training now, back in my day, you would do a few specialities as SHO level before deciding and applying for registrar training. This also has its disadvantages though.

@Karolinska Sorry I haven't seen where you link to your statistics, as asked before it'd be really helpful if you can supply this.

"What remains a fact is that certain unis seem to have more students getting through the seemingly endless exams and selection processes - and that's something that I think mumsneedwine is maybe missing. It can only be to do with the level of aptitude and ability that tends to be the norm at those unis. Of course and absolutely there must be outliers at every other medical school in the UK"

I am not looking to hear any 'type' of answer, only what is factually correct and not biased :)

@Puddinglane12 that is very helpful advice and commentary. Thank you

Life happens to trainees, and sometimes, for the first time in their lives, they struggle with postgraduate exams ( for many it’s the first time they’ve not managed to pass exams and it affects them badly). Some have mental health issues, covid ‘broke a few. Family situations, different types of life upheavals, just make career progression difficult. Some sail through exams but struggle with getting their ARCP paperwork together, even though they have great skills and work hard. There is so much more I can say, that can cause disruption.

In terms of getting a consultant job, again the university you attend or style of training/ skills you may have picked up, doesn’t confer a great advantage. You are more likely to get a consultant job in the region you have completed your training in, because you are known. You have probably helped to develop services in the hospitals you’ve worked in and demonstrated that you will make a great colleague and contribute to areas such as service development, teaching, research and being a good team mate. I guess like a solicitor is more likely to make partner in a firm they’ve worked in.

i have a some Oxbridge and other perceived ‘high ranking’ university consultant colleagues and indeed I went to one of those, and I didn’t even know what universities they attended for many years of working together, even one that went to same university as me. This only came up in random discussions. I have also been on Consultant interview panels. I soon forget what universities the applicants went to. It’s not even a deciding factor between 2 candidates who score identically.

I think we should focus more on supporting ourselves and our DC through this process. I’m grateful only one of my DC has chosen medicine, I do sometimes worry for the future.

Puddinglane your posts are very thoughtful and I find them genuinely interesting. But it seems that the relevance of 'which uni you went to' to career progression is being used differently by different posters. That's muddying the waters somewhat. If a handful plus of certain unis are significantly more represented in competitive deaneries/ specialties then it follows that there's something in the waters at those unis. I profoundly agree with life throwing stuff at you, and that certainly is entirely random.

You may well prefer not to answer this (completely understood) but if you are ok with it - which is your specialty?

No such thing as a competitive deanery anymore. It's random allocation. And what's popular with one would be hell for another. London is NOT the choice of most doctors, why bother being poor when you can have a good life elsewhere. My students are all Londoners and v v few choose to return.

One of my ex medics now runs a surf school near Sydney. All because he went to Devon for F1 and learned to surf, moved out to Aus after F2 and then left medicine as preferred surfing. Oxford graduate, lots of A stars, total genius. But he felt there was more to life. 🤷‍♀️

Does that say something about the university or the people who to chose to study there?

mumsneedwine for those in my DS's cohort, there most certainly are competitive deaneries. London is without any shadow of a doubt the first choice among his peer group. He's now worked right across London and it's the same choices being made time and again. For his particular specialty there were three places up for grabs in North London and two in South London. Luckily he was ranked second nationally so got his first choice which was confirmed very efficiently the following day. As I say, his friends from uni were equally fortunate/ successful with their chosen London specialties. Many were ranked very high too. Certainly very different first choice success rate from the numbers generally. You may not choose London yourself and your own mentees may prefer not London but the overwhelming thrust is for London as top choice. It always has been and while I would be the first to laud out of London, that's not the way the majority of the young people from the top unis vote.

The new random allocation is just that: new. It also only applies to F1 and F2. Going forward you still list your choices. Indeed being pedantic the 2024 graduates did still list their choices in order, so to that extent there are still more sought after and less sought after deaneries. I'm not sure that it's therefore correct to say there's no such thing as a competitive deanery any more.

I'd personally avoid the Unis that the current leaders of the GMC and RCGP attended. They are not doing a great job at the moment.
Have no idea where these 'leaders' qualified.

However I love the BMA joint chairs - great examples of their Unis. No idea where Ron and Vivek went.

Off to prep year 13 for A level Chem. Quite a few medics this year, but dentists are becoming more common.

I have also been on Consultant interview panels. I soon forget what universities the applicants went to. It’s not even a deciding factor between 2 candidates who score identically.

But that is not how I would expect it to work. People are most likely to recruit people like them. You say you went to Oxbridge so you are more likely to feel ‘comfortable’ with another Oxbridge graduate who has been trained in the same manner, and culture, as you. You don’t need to know their uni for this to influence you. Also if Oxbridge churn out medics who fit the mould that the NHS are looking for in consultants then they are more likely to be recruited because they make better candidates. Both of which means university does matter. Type of students recruited by Oxbridge will also influence the success of those universities but that would be a personal advantage rather than a university one.

@Karolinska we are never going to agree. It sounds like your DS and friends want to be in London, which is lovely. Most don't. Medicine is not a competition. Most doctors are not bothered.

My own DD has loads of F1 and F2 friends and hasn't a clue where most of them went to Uni, and frankly could not care less.

'Type of students recruited by Oxbridge' is the ones that apply. Most don't as they don't like the courses. So they can only take from the pool that do - who have exactly the same grades as those that don't.

This is why many people avoid Oxbridge. Arrogance. That they are the best when they are not.

However I love the BMA joint chairs - great examples of their Unis. No idea where Ron and Vivek went.

All the doctors in my circle are no longer members of the BMA. No idea about the current chairs but they have been very unhappy with them for years. Including one episode when a deanery over-recruited and the local BMA rep agreed choosing the pregnant doctors was a great way to decide which ones to move…

Arrogance can get people far, sadly.

@Sloejelly yes but you're not paid £15.53 an hour. Those doctors need the BMA do they can earn more than they did making coffee at Uni.

Arrogant doctors are dangerous.

Arrogance can get people far, sadly

As can ability, thankfully.

Ability is definitely better. Which all medical students have. Thankfully.

Year 13s are off to 11 diff Unis this year, and I couldn't tell you why one got into Oxford and another into Liverpool. They are all lovely and clever and keen.

mumsneedwine you're coming dangerously close to slagging off thousands of young people from two universities quite gratuitously and with only the very slightest familiarity with them either personally or as a group. That's seriously not pleasant. The reality is that very few are actually arrogant. Far more are quite the reverse.