Medicine 2025 entry

[HGC2]

Inspired and slightly terrified reading the 2023 entry threads and how much prep has to go into a medicine application!

DC wants to do medicine, probably in Scotland as a Scottish student, doing well at school but this doesn't seem to be enough! School has little / no experience of applications for medicine as a not fantastic state school!

Can anyone advise what work experience / volunteering they will need (currently volunteering at sports club with hope of job)
what are the spreadsheets that people talk about?
How do you strategically apply?

I have one child at uni and they just applied and got a place, this seems like a whole other level!

Where did your DD intercalate mumsneedwine and out of interest, what was additional degree subject?

We’re Surrey, so I don’t know you! But if I did your secret would be safe with me 😉

I was not talking about “points”. If the intercalation is of direct relevance to the specialisation that is applied for, the applicant will have an advantage both in terms of knowledge and being able to demonstrate interest. One example is a friend’s DC who intercalated at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine who was then able to build a career within the army as a tropical medicine specialist.

A popular intercalation for students who realise they want to build a career outside medicine is the Management course at Imperial.

There are lots of very interesting options on the list. DD toyed with sports medicine or an air ambulance course at QMUL, but since in sixth form she had wavered between medicine and engineering, the engineering intercalation made sense.

@Karolinska mine went to Notts where they used to do a BMedSci within the 5 years. So you graduated with 2 degrees. But they are stopping that next year - partly I think because an extra degree no longer really carries much weight for speciality training.

Courses change every year so you need to make sure you read the Uni websites not listen to past students (as they sometimes won't know the changes).

And intercalated degrees cost money (an extra year of student debt and rent). Unfortunately not possible for all students - which is why they've been removed from the points as deemed elitist.

As I previously said, it's nice to do one as it opens up ideas for the future.

@mumsneedwine what are your thoughts on how much which medical school you go to means for your work life afterward, assuming you want to be a specialist of some form?

Some seem to say it doesn't matter as they all come out with a medical degree, while others say it matters greatly and specialists/consultants etc tend to have attended XYZ universities for example.

@SoTiredNeedHoliday no one cares where you went. No one even asks ! Foundation is currently a lottery (stupid idea), but even when it was done by scores the Uni was not mentioned.
And applying for speciality training is shortlisted by exam results (MSRA etc).
And the best Med school for producing fab F1s (according to a recent survey) - UEA. Not sure what the criteria were though 😂.

If you graduate with a medical degree they are all equal. Even the US doesn't really care now - they need doctors too !

The best medical school is the one that offers you a place. The mantra is 'you only need one offer'.

Ha, this is where the disagreement creeps in. The six year courses include a year’s intercalation and along with some of the more academic internal/external intercalations do allow opportunity later on for a more academic path. DD was able to spend her elective (2 months in your final year where you get to do what you want) in a research lab with a good chance of being accepted for a PhD if that is what she wants. The depth of knowledge in a specific area plus the increased chance of getting your name on research papers is probably what sets the six year courses (including some 5 year plus intercalation) apart. Yes a doctor is a doctor, but there are a lot of different careers in medicine and for some courses can help.

Yup, we disagree on that 😊. My students who've been to Oxbridge end up with no better jobs than the ones who went to Sheffield or Leicester. In fact my most highly rated ex student, currently a lead clinical at a v prestigious American hospital, went to Southampton. His name is on v many research papers.

Van Tam (covid football analogy man) went to Notts. Via clearing.

As in any career, being good at your job is the best way to get ahead. However I would argue that a disproportionate number of very senior doctors studied on more academic courses. Oxbridge, say, does not necessarily produce better doctors, as empathy, resilience, communication etc are so so important, but the more academic approach will suit some and not others. Courses are not the same. Fit is important.

Totally agree. The course style should suit you. Although this is hard as you really choose your 4 Unis based on your UCAT these days. So more where you fit stats wise ! I always say to my students when asked 'why this Uni' the answer is not 'because you count GCSEs and mine are really good and my UCAT is not the best so couldn't apply to Bristol ' - even though that's the truth 😂.

I think medicine has changed so much since the current elder consultants were training. They never had to worry about being unemployed or paying their rent as F1s. Doctoring seems much less old boys network these days, thankfully.

@Needmoresleep hope DD had a fab F1 and ARCP all done. On to F2, which sounds like a scary step up !

mumsneedwine if everyone came out of medical schools equal that would be very odd, since they don't all go in equal and I'm not aware of a nationwide brainwashing programme which reduces them all to the lowest common denominator or elevates them all to the highest.

I'm not clear where you get your information from. Individual cases may well not evidence very much. I'd put money on the fact that the youngish 29 yr - 34 yr old junior doctors currently getting fairly rapidly through the different stages will be disproportionately from the more academic courses/ top five or six unis. Obviously they'll also have to possess the other essential qualities required for top level doctoring, but that's still a fairly large pool of junior doctors to dominate the stats as the pyramid knocks others out.

It's not about universities per se - although top quality teachers help massively - it's about innate talent to a large extent. Ultimately that will (or should) show.

@Karolinska sorry, I'm not sure what your point is ? My evidence comes from the 100s of young people I've helped apply to medical school, who are now doctors of varying degrees of seniority. It's not scientifically researched 😂. A few have become v eminent in their fields (& are brilliant at helping WP students).

Of course how you are as a doctor is individual- v good doctors, and I'm very sure v bad ones, come from all Unis. But as a patient I have never asked my doctor where they trained. I don't care, I just want them to be kind and make me well again.

I was asked does it matter for training where you study, and the answer is nope.

And what is a 'top 5 of 6 Uni' ? Using what selection tool ?

Who decided which were better, using what metric ? I know graduates from pretty much all Unis and all have gone on to speciality training, here or abroad. Even the F2s this year, which has been stupid, have all done well in MSRA or other exams. Unfortunately being in the top 20% of results did not guarantee you a job this year. Nothing to do with Uni, all to do with under funding and IMG recruitment. But that's another thread. And a trip to Australia and New Zealand for a few years.

The five or six who regularly feature at the top of several league tables for Medicine. No more mystic than that.

The question from SoTiredNeedHoliday was about career progression and not merely F1andF2.

I was asked does it matter for training where you study, and the answer is , logic suggests that it does matter

You were actually asked about future career prospects and given that the top of the profession is dominated by far fewer uni names than the F1 part of the profession, logic would suggest that it does matter. Not to do with uni per se , let alone anyone asking you or caring where you studied, but purely because of the quality of those unis/ their teaching and the sort of students that study at them after the admissions cull.

@Karolinska oh those, highly sophisticated, league tables. The ones where students respond or are paid for my newspapers ? Because one Uni, a v v v famous one, once got heavily marked down, lost its top ranking, because the new chairs in the lecture theatre were uncomfortable 😂. Another lost 12 places because its students were angry because they'd changed the exam format last minute so they all gave rubbish feedback.

For medicine they are useless as employability is the same for all, so they are ranked mostly by A level grades. Which is a self fulfilling thing as they ask for higher ones so students with higher ones apply. Does not mean they come out as any better or worse doctors, and makes no difference when doing MSRA. Or passing ARCP.

You will find highly qualified, v wonderful doctors, at the top of all specialities from ALL Unis. Google it.

@Karolinska you really do sound a bit cross about my replies. I am here to help not argue. Have no reason to not tell the truth 🤷‍♀️

mumsneedwine I'm not talking about student satisfaction or chair comfortableness rating.

I'm afraid you're kidding yourself on this one.

'The sort of students' has angered me. I hope you are not training doctors. I hate to think what you mean.

@Karolinska I'm not. The 500+ students I've helped become doctors show me I'm not. But you can believe whatever you like.

My students are probably 'the sort' that you look down on.

I'm certainly not angry mumsneedwine. Let me go back to what I said. Oh ok. Well to be fair the sort of students who get offers form Oxford. Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Kings, Bristol etc do tend to be pretty high calibre. Obviously high calibre students go to other unis too. But not all medical students go to medical schools exactly equal in terms of intellect and aptitude.

My students are probably 'the sort' that you look down on

I would not look down on any young person.

How on earth many students go from your school to medical school a year?!