Medicine 2025 entry

[HGC2]

Inspired and slightly terrified reading the 2023 entry threads and how much prep has to go into a medicine application!

DC wants to do medicine, probably in Scotland as a Scottish student, doing well at school but this doesn't seem to be enough! School has little / no experience of applications for medicine as a not fantastic state school!

Can anyone advise what work experience / volunteering they will need (currently volunteering at sports club with hope of job)
what are the spreadsheets that people talk about?
How do you strategically apply?

I have one child at uni and they just applied and got a place, this seems like a whole other level!

For Scottish future applicants, are your children applying only to Scottish uni's or looking to ROUK too? My child is set on staying here so plans to apply to 4 here, UCAT and highers permitting of course. I wondered if the spreadsheet system was required if this is her approach?

@HGC2 if her UCAT is good enough for 4 Scottish Unis I'd stay there. Why incur debt when you don't need to.

@maybemedmum 6 weeks usually the recommended prep time. So August a good plan. Book as soon as dates open as they go v fast if want a specific date and location. They are held at Pearson centres which also run the theory driving tests (among other things).

I have also done a few UCAT questions and quite enjoyed them... but without a time limit! I think the abstract reasoning would be my downfall too. Can't get my head around those shapes...

@ColouringPencils there are rules. The UCAT book is v good at explaining how to spot which rule each pattern is using. I'm rubbish at it though !!!

One approach we found useful for the ucat was to watch you tube videos on techniques. It was something we could do together so I felt vaguely useful and supportive. It helped to see how others approached questions and it reduced the repetitive nature of just doing lots of mocks. We found we quite liked an Australian one I think it was Emil. There were lots of different vlogers though. Also once some areas of strength emerge then focusing on the specific sections which were harder rather than doing all four categories every time. Still a few full mocks and more nearer the exam date.

I appreciate this is not relevant to 2025 entry - but could be if taking a gap year - but I’ve just seen St Mary’s University, Twickenham saying they are opening a Med school from Sept 2026. Anyone know about this? @mumsneedwine
I know nothing about the university itself, but it does mention its catholic heritage so not sure if they will give preference to Catholic students- I suppose we won’t know until nearer the time. Or is it due to be a private med school?
Are there any other potential new med schools in the pipeline?

N idea why they are opening a new med school. There are not enough F1 jobs for the current number of students !!

Seems like the Dean is involved with NHSE. Who seem to want to do medicine by googling stuff. Will be interesting to watch this course !

Thank you all kindly for the tips on UCAT prep. Most invaluable. I just watched 2 of Emil’s videos.

Thanks @Unexpecteddrivinginstructor I will suggest DD look out for Emil as she likes a good YouTube explainer video.

Are people starting to practise for UCAT now? She hasn't yet. There seems to be so much on for these young people between studying, getting some work experience, hobbies, trying to relax and see their friends. I wonder if she will regret doing 4 A levels as it does really mean she has v little free time, but she doesn't want to drop any of them. I can't wait for Easter holidays!

The fact that St Mary's Twickenham is opening a medical school doesn't necessarily mean that it will be granted any home student numbers. A large number of universities have been getting medicine degree programmes accredited by the GMC in recent years in the hope of being allocated student numbers, but it's a gamble.

From a home student's perspective, there are four new medical schools opening in 2024: Bangor, Brunel, Chester and Three Counties (a collaboration between the universities of Worcester, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire). I think there will be three more in 2025: Cumbria, Portsmouth and Surrey, but these are all either additional locations for students on the medicine courses of big London medical schools (Cumbria for Imperial, Portsmouth for King's) or only open to international students plus a small number of non-NHS-funded home students (paid from from international students' tuition fees).

However, with the exception of Bangor and Brunel, these are all graduate-only. As there is expected to be a big expansion of people undertaking medicine degrees between 2026 and 2028, and then an even bigger expansion by 2031, it's pretty likely there will be several new medical schools opening during that period. Beyond 2026, I think it's pretty unlikely there will be much of an increase in numbers on conventional 5-year medicine degrees. The push will be for students on 4-year degrees and apprentices, although it's very unclear how either of these will work yet.

In response to @mumsneedwine's point, a footnote to the table below says "Assumes proportional increases in postgraduate training (foundation training) and specialty [sic] training including the potential to further increase GP trainee places." Again, it's not clear yet what the plan is for making this happen. Also, there is a lot of talk in the plan and elsewhere about increasing the supply of "generalists" (general acute medicine doctors, not just GPs), which sort of suggests the number of specialist training paces won't expand at the same rate as the number of foundation places.

NHS Long Term Workforce Plan section 2

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne current F2/F1 are facing unemployment next year. So unless they increase training places the whole exercise is a waste of time. We have enough doctors. We don't have enough jobs.

11,000 people applied to be GPs this year. 7,000 were denied a job. GPs are being made redundant.

With the shortage of training places and with locum jobs drying up as nore physician associates, my F1 DD is increasingly convinced thst there won't be a job in medicine for her in 18 months time.

She enjoys her work and appears to be good at it, but she expects to have to choose between moving to Australia or finding a job outside medicine. She is lucky that her intercalation degree gives her options, but it seems a waste. It seems bizarre that despite all their training they are not allowed to apply for physician associate posts.

@Needmoresleep we never thought they'd be in this position. Our girls did good. The system has let them down.

Please get your kids to look very carefully about what is going on with doctors in this country. It is currently not great. I hope for change.

I bumped into my local MP at an event recently. He is best described as lobby fodder, but listened as I explained the problem. I prefaced it by saying that it did not make sense but seemed as a result of an overlarge bureaucracy tying itself in knots, and that I had no facts and figures. I was just relating the real perceptions of my daughter and her peers. He listened, commented that if what I said was true, it was bonkers, and asked me to write to him, which I must do.

If anyone has some easily digestible facts and figures this would be useful.

DD is frustrated that medic leaders seem focussed on pay. That is one element but there is an awful lot more around conditions and prospects that is not getting the attention it needs.

The NHS is sprawling and the bureaucracy often fails to think. DD had to fight (quoting regulations and threatening to go to the Union) to get someone in an office to accept that she could not just go off nights onto a day shift in her next placement at a different hospital. The person presumably just saw them as pegs to slot onto a rota, not humans who need to sleep. For her next rotation she has been told when she has to take her annual leave. No consideration given to the fact she is a long way from home and might want to take time off when friends are or to fit in with a family event and unhelpfully it will be towards the start of four months of a busy placement. Things will get worse for the new intake as under the new system they may find themselves far from where from where they want to be.

Judging from the MPs reaction I think there might be some mileage in a constructive approach. Tories will know that NHS problems are frustrating their core, and aging, voters. Labour want to show they can run things.

@mumsneedwine and @Needmoresleep it is such a depressing state of affairs. At this point in time, I sincerely wish my DC had not chosen Medicine. What a ridiculous scenario that you have to go to the other side of the world simply to do the job for which you have trained because you are just not valued.

@opoponax think my DD would just like a guarantee of a job after F2. Valued or not.

@Needmoresleep I believe the BMA are discussing more than pay, but that's the only legal thing they can strike about.

I was so heartened by the RCP this week voting to stop PA expansion, against their leadership. Other Royal colleges coming out to support their juniors. The change is hopefully coming. But this government seem to hate doctors (I secretly think little Rishi got rejected from Medical school 😂). Not sure why the public are not more angry about not being able to see a doctor - they are there and ready but NHSE don't seem to want to employ them. Wonder why 🤷‍♀️

And if it doesn't, then ours are welcome anywhere. Canada making it easier for our doctors, as are other European countries.

I think the problem lies with the NHS. Over time they seem to have got the idea that distributing rainbow lanyards is a substitute for effective management. Health is devolved and there is no evidence that Wales, Scotland or N Ireland are any better.

Think Scotland is. Settled FPR and v v few PAs. They seem to like doctors a bit.

DDs hospital have been much kinder than needsmore. She has always got any leave requested, and rota, although brutal at times (4 x 13 hour shifts or 5 nights in a row), she always gets a day off after nights and long days. V supportive consultants and nurses and the F1s are a v tight nit social bunch. She'll be sad to move on I think.

Consultants and team should be fine. Just the over efficient admin person who has decided to sort out rotas and time off before any of them start, and seems unaware that they are humans. Admin seems quite remote and hard to communicate with.

Ditto being expected to do a day immediately following a week on nights with a one hour gap. Obviously it would have been unsafe, but it took a few days of excalation before it was sorted.

That is the point. There are lots of intelligent, hard working and dedicated people. However the system is bureaucratic so poor conditions creep in, probably by default. It is as if no one thinks things through. They are all very worried about not having jobs in 16 months time. Their consultants are aware. But what can any of them do.

My DC attended an open day at a local hospital which was lead by some inspirational and honest doctors, it was good to hear the good and the bad. My child is more determined than ever, Highers start in a couple of weeks then UCAT, just so many hurdles to jump through!

I'm booking some UCAT tutoring for my daughter what is the best option?