Scrapping into Oxford?

[fakenamefornow]

I think my y12 teen should try for Oxford, she thinks she shouldn't because she won't get in and it'll use up one of her Ucas options. I think she has a chance. Honest opinions please.
Context -
From excellent state school, never been on free school meals or other disadvantage indicators. Not tutored.
11 GCSEs - 6 grade 9, 5 grade 8
Doing chemistry, biology and history, A levels plus history related EPC
Want to study History

It really is up to her. Both mine wanted to apply. Both did, and one got in. The one who didn't is totally fine about it.
They both got alll 9s at GCSE or all A stars. But here's the thing - with minimal effort. Sure they put the work in, but they didn't have to slog. A levels they worked harder, but it still wasn't hard if you see what I mean. Neither tutored, and went to state school where they gave no Oxbridge help.
You have to work hard at Cambridge (the one I know about). If your daughter is already having to sweat to get results she might be right - somewhere else might be better and more fun.

That's a good point.
She did work hard, or well, clock up the hours, to get her results. She wouldn't have been able to just stroll in having done no work and score highly. She does love studying though, that's why I changed 'work hard', to 'clock up the hours'. She does read history books for pleasure as well. I can't remember what she's reading at the moment, but it's a book about some event in history. She likes recent history, well, the last 200 years, and has little interest in ancient or medieval history compared to her love of more recent stuff and how we're walking in its shadow.
Love of studying and of the subject, might not be enough at Oxford though.

Yet @fakenamefornow I've seen another poster saying my argument doesn't necessarily stand. And they may be right. It does boil down to your DD really.
What you say about her reading around her subject is promising too. Don't forget that at Oxbridge you definitely do still 'read' for a degree. My son did English and read and read and read. I know people who did English at elsewhere and most definitely didn't! They relied on study and lecture notes. It really isn't like that at Oxbridge.. and your ideas are interrogated every week in supervision or tutorial.

Yeah, sorry Op but really wouldn't think scrapping is the right way to try to get into Oxford...

What do school say? Oxford colleges are all affiliated with areas of the country for outreach work . My DD had a trip organised by school in Y11 for high achievers to try and encourage them to go for it.

Her school target those they think could get in and do a lot of prep work with them to support - south London comp, think they generally get one in every year.

She is naturally bright -and loves English and reading. Not so great in maths. Predicted 9.9.9.9.9.8.8.8.7

I dunno @Bbq1 it felt a bit like scrapping when DS was amidst it - like a battle campaign at any rate!

@fakenamefornow i really don’t think anyone ‘scrapes’ into Oxbridge - the numbers of very well qualified applicants that there aren’t places for disputes that notion! I would trust the process to mean no one is ‘scrapping’ in at all! Doesn’t mean it is right for everyone when they get there but that is quite a different matter. I am not sure why some posters are encouraging the ‘scraping in’ concept but i would urge you to look at fit and likely ability to thrive and enjoy, rather that capability to be there. Also very weary of people who say their kids never study but get the highest grades consistently; there are very few subjects where some learning effort isn’t needed.

My position is with excellent grades she’ll surely get in somewhere decent, and an application to Oxford won’t be a waste. And if she gets the grades to apply, then that is a huge achievement in itself.

Some people do "scrape in" to Oxbridge - some miss their offers but still get in. As Oxbridge interview, they've invested a lot in their candidates by the time results are out, so it's not always black and white when it comes to the grades and there can be flexibility. However, sometimes the admissions teams do make a mistake and admit a student not really up to the rigours of the course and the way it's taught. On the advice of their tutor, parents or putting two and two together themselves, they may move on to complete their course elsewhere, but occasionally a student desperately holds on and fails to do as well as they might in a less pressured environment. As some employers actively seek to recruit Oxbridge graduates, and the old boy network comes into play, it's understandable why they don't want to do give up on that hope.

I'd encourage her to have go. If she gets an interview, she'll have as much chance as anyone else. GCSE's don't count at that stage. She'll still gave four UCAs options. Are there really more than 4 unis that she's interested in?

OP, it's quite simple.

You need to find out if it's her lack of confidence that's holding her back from her "dream". And if that turns out to be the case, then gently encourage her. If Oxford has the right course for her, she should go for it. If not, check Cambridge - they offer quite a different range of courses... and the course should fit perfectly.

I didn't dare tell my parents I dreamed about Cambridge (even though my school had urged me a few times to consider it). Thought I would be ridiculed or patronised. Anyway, my mum took me to one side and said that I could apply anywhere I wanted, including Cambridge.

Your daughter does not need five offers, so the "taking up a place on UCAS" argument doesn't really hold water. Nobody chooses five safety choices.

DD went to Oxford... And is one that didn't have straight 9s at GCSE. Her subject is one that other criteria counts and she has that in spades. Thousands of hours of practice and an all consuming desire to be the very best.

Her assessment is that Oxford spits out it's young. Kids come in at the very top of their game, having been the very best of their school, carrying the weight of parental expectation on their shoulders. And then they are put in a place where they are no longer the best and even if they are they could do better. It is so difficult and if they are in 2 minds about it then they may struggle.

My DD will get through but it will be with the help of counsellors and a shed load of anti depressants. She is not unusual. More than half of her peers are in a similar state. I am conflicted about cheering her on when she applied. I am not sure I would like myself if I had encouraged her against her better judgement.

@Unescorted what an honest (and accurate) assessment, describing better than I could my son's experience. I would say he was happy go lucky and devil may care before Cambridge. Then something changed.

@faffadoodledo they do change. It has been a really difficult 3 years for her. & she is one of the lucky ones. Her tutors (both college and department) are hugely supportive. She will come out with a good degree from Oxford... Superficially successful. It will take time for her to heal. I hope your son does too.

Oh @Unescorted he's 3 years clear and like your daughter got a good degree and (I like your phrase) superficially successful. But he seemed to lose rather than gain confidence from being there

Ha! It should come with a health warning.

When I was at Oxbridge (both of them for different degrees...), we used to half-joke that it was like soldiers in WW2; some had "a good war" but most really didn't.

I gained confidence from being there and really enjoyed my degree. I think doing STEM subjects at Oxford or Cambridge sounds potentially punishing, but not law or humanities. I never aimed to be “the best,” though, only to enjoy my subject and my time at Oxford, and I never wasted time questioning whether I was in the right place or “good enough.” A lot of highly conscientious perfectionists all together in one place can definitely create an anxiety-inducing environment for some, however. Plus, there isn’t much scope for taking your foot off the pedal with such short terms, as there is so much to experience in Oxford and Cambridge and so little time to do it in. Apart from my actual finals, I have nothing but fantastic, fond memories of a wonderful, all-too-short three years.

I have to say, I would not have enjoyed being at Oxford during covid - so much that is integral to enjoying the experience would not have been happening.

Ooo I dunno about STEM @Walkaround but humanities might be expected to push out two highly scrutinised essays a week compared with two a term at other universities! I think it's challenging whatever the subject.

DD’s experience concurs pretty much with that of@Walkaround. She thrived at Oxford, loved her course (STEM) had fantastic opportunities in sport etc. Covid had some impact but I think just bonded her college friends and training squad closer together.
DS is still at Cambridge but having a similarly positive experience. Both went with solid top grades at GCSE/A Level and were very used to juggling extra curricular alongside academic work.

That’s true @faffadoodledo , but I never viewed it as challenging so much as a fantastic opportunity to learn as much as possible about a subject that enthused me, which was why I had chosen to go there. I hugely appreciated all the feedback and attention - I was there to learn and develop my thinking, not to perform, iyswim, so it wasn’t a question of trying to measure up to some kind of unattainable perfection, it was about my learning journey, with experts there to guide me. I would feel a bit let down by only having to write a couple of essays a term, tbh!

There are so many amazing History degrees to choose from. I read History at Oxford but I was so torn, I remember sitting in my school library reviewing the degree syllabus content of various universities, weighing up the extra work of a joint honours course, working out which courses would let me specialise in the areas I was most interested in. Once you get an Oxford offer though you tend not to turn it down, and I was rather sorry I missed out on my 2nd option of History and MFL.

I had the best time I could imagine at Oxford and it was a wonderful place to immerse yourself in the study of history; what with the quality and quantity of the libraries and tutor system and being surrounded by people who love the subject passionately it is an amazing experience. It is absolutely intense, very “work hard, play hard” and fitting in socialising, sport and hobbies/clubs makes it incredibly hard work. To get the most out of it you have to be 100% into it. If your dd doesn’t want to do it, it’s not something to push her into.

I am equally confident she will have an incredible time at another top flight university, and if that’s what lures her, let her follow her own mind.

Second-guessing her decision won’t increase her confidence any, will it?

The ones who got in at our school were all sloggers. Spend hours and hours reading and revising. Speak up all the time in class. The admission tests can be passed through endless practice. Interestingly, the cleverest kids (naturally so) didn’t make it.

@IheartNiles - that’s absolutely not my experience both as someone who went to Cambridge and as a teacher with many years’ experience. They are looking for spark and potential and just slog really won’t cut the mustard. In English for example it’s students who have a genuine interest in Literature well beyond the syllabus and who develop their own areas of reading.