2nd opinions on DS' MFL options

[Extrahotchilli]

I posted on here in January when DS (in year 12) was starting to research university courses and received helpful advice. He's now definitely decided to do modern foreign languages but is stuck on a couple of questions and I wonder if anyone could help because I've seen quite a few knowledgeable posts on MFL recently. His questions are

1. Is it OK to do MFL languages on their own or would it be better to combine his two languages (French and Spanish) with business? He thinks the latter would make him more employable but is v unsure as he's never studied business b4 (not even at GCSE). He's found a handful of courses that allow business as a minor (33% of degree rather than 50%) - see 3 below - which makes it less risky he thinks
2. If he does pure MFL, he wants to continue with French and Spanish post A-level but is quite keen on studying a third language ab initio. He is thinking German would be the most useful/fun. Is three languages too much? (NB: he could not do three languages if he chose MFL with business.)
3. What do you think of his uni choices for modern languages with business (if he goes down that route): Birmingham (AAB - a bit of a stretch), Nottingham (ABB), Newcastle (ABB), Leicester (ABB), Sheffield Hallam (BBC). They are the only courses he can find that offer business as a minor (33% of degree) and permit two languages alongside (most unis - Bath, Exeter, Lancaster etc - only allow one language and are 50/50)
4. If he does pure MFL (three languages), he has a far wider choice of universities, including Southampton, Bristol, Liverpool, Lancaster and Sheffield.

Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance.

@Extrahotchilli My DD did 2 MFL (joint honours) at Bristol. Neither were ab initio. She’s now a barrister. She needed an academic degree. The fact is, her MFLs are of little importance to her job. She doesn’t use them. It’s the skills she learnt on the degree that matter. So skills in research, juggling 2 subjects, time management, meeting deadlines. going abroad, studying literature and culture in depth, being challenged and rising to the challenge, being curious and honing thinking skills ready for work all have a bearing on employment.

My thoughts, therefore, might differ from others who might post and see the languages as being central to their work.

Why does he want 3 languages? Is he definitely intending to use 2 or 3? If so, in what capacity? Or it is more important to get the business skills the courses offer? I’m not sure you can do in depth in business and MFLs.

What A levels do Bath actually want for Business and MFL. It’s a competitive university. However he might find MFL entry requirements lower. Far fewer are qualified for these degrees. Going to Bristol or Lancaster for MFL x 2 is a better option than Leicester or Sheffield Hallam for Business and 2 MFLs. Bath MFLs are business oriented.

Always do joint honours (2) MFL. You don’t need 3. Two semesters abroad falls into place more readily. Also working abroad is now more difficult post Brexit. Studying at a uni abroad is still available. He can still apply for work internships here in the holidays.

The best universities for Business, as you indicate, allow one MFL (Bath, Lancaster, Exeter). There’s a reason for this. A MFL is hard work with Business. It’s not entirely accurate that more is better with MFL. I think 3 is unnecessary. It’s the latest fad though. I would not dilute the MFLs too much. 50% for 2 is very low input. Otherwise Birmingham, Nottingham and Newcastle are fine. 70% is better but it’s not 100% so must be diluted input and output.

Young people with MFL degrees are employable without business. If he wants the joint MFL/ Business degree, go to the best. I don’t see Leicester or Sheffield Hallam as competing with Bath or Lancaster. So what matters more in terms of getting a job? You certainly can get business jobs with a MFL degree.

So decide on one or two MFLs.
Business or no business
is he qualified for a decent business degree?
Is it better to aim high for a MFL degree and get a business job where he learns on the job?

No easy answer!

Bath have quite a lot of detail about A levels on their International Management with MFL degree. Does he have the essay and numerical A level subjects?

What would he enjoy most? Aside from the languages a traditional course contains a lot of history and literature which I personally found much more interesting than the thought of business.

I would agree with the pp that diluting languages too much isn’t always a good idea. Apart from anything else doing three can be language heavy so you miss some of the more interesting modules. That said, I did three for one year and don’t regret it.

My DD was in a similar position last year - whether to study MFL alone or combined with business (like your DS, she wanted business as a minor - not a joint honours and there are diddly squat unis that offer it). In the end, she prioritised the university status (as @TizerorFizz suggested here) so applied for a mixture of the two and her choices were: Birmingham, Newcastle and Nottingham (all MFL and biz) and Exeter and Lancaster (MFL only).

writing the PS was initially daunting as two of her choices were MFL only so unsure how to play it. But she decided to focus on MFL and just had a brief para on business (which of course went to the two unis that she was applying for pure MFL).

She got offers from all five and went to four open days. Firmed Newcastle for MFL and biz and insured Lancaster (MFL only) - both ABB offers but she thought Lancaster might be more lenient as pure MFL (without business) so worth insuring. Missed the grades and got ABC instead of ABB - Newcastle declined but Lancaster accepted her. She is half way through first year and having a blast. No regrets about not studying business - she only contemplated it because that’s what her 6th form tutors pushed as a way of making her degree more vocational. it’s In vogue now (as are three languages)

I should add that I would reckon unis will snap up your boy for MFL. DD’s classes are 75% female!

Many years ago I did 3 MFL A-levels and took all three through to final year of my degree. I did eventually go on to use my languages, lived abroad for years and did fairly well out of it, however I would not recommend a pure language degree and certainly not for 3. I was very limited with my module choices and I got bored. With the benefit of hindsight I'd do a language with something else that leads into more options. Learning another language is something that can be done fairly easily outside of a degree course if he has a talent for it and the time would be better spent now doing something that is of more value/practical use career wise. Of those in my cohort who didn't go into teaching, not that many of them ended up in a purely language related field. A lot ended up in random graduate schemes as there was no obvious outlet. I am sure things are very different now, but some decent careers advice would be worth it sooner rather than later.

@FortunaMajor
”Random graduate schemes” are sought after now and not to be sniffed at! So many DC don’t get anywhere near them at all.

I also think there will be more leeway with grades for MFL. Business, especially at somewhere like Bath, will be very competitive. MFLs are easier to get into because fewer do MFLs these days.

DD did MFL degree because she was good at MFLs. She felt unsure about law for 3 years. An academic MFL course means you study options where essay writing is needed. It doesn’t stop you going into other careers because some employers will value MFLs, the year abroad and the quality of the course/university.

I think he should do the degree he's likely to get the best results in, and will enjoy the most (usually the same thing) at the best u over airy he can get into. I don't think business gives him any advantage in employability- if he's looking for something that isn't specifically related to his languages then a lot of grad schemes just want a 2-1, and an MFL degree would be seen as "harder" and therefore more valuable then business...

*no idea where u over airy came from, that obviously should have been university!

If he wants a career as a linguist I would suggest he chooses Russian for a 3rd language if that’s an option. French, Spanish and Russian are all official languages of the United Nations, so if he wanted to pursue a career in the translation/interpreting industry that would be a real advantage.

I don’t think he necessarily needs to combine it with another subject. MFL courses are pretty varied in terms of studying literature, politics, history as well as the pure language elements. He will learn the skills he needs for a wide range of careers.

Dont do translation. Lonely job and now computerized. Not that many jobs in interpreting either. DD doesn’t know anyone doing these jobs. Most people branched out from their MFLs.

I would explore the option of starting three and dropping one at the end of first year. I did this at Edinburgh some years ago - was down to do French and Spanish but picked up Russian ab initio, then dropped Spanish at the end of first year to focus on French and Russian. It made the year abroad easier - though I couldn’t have done all three to degree level at Edinburgh anyway. I think I came out with a better grounding in Russian than I would have done as one of three languages.

I personally think you’d get a better degree doing two languages well, and he has the rest of his life to study business if he decides he’d like to, whereas MFL degree level study is harder to fit in with adult life and holding down a job. Better to get a good degree in MFL from a good university, and then go on to do some kind of postgraduate business study if that appeals. Or rather, study what you’re genuinely interested in as you’ll probably do better at it! He sounds very unsure about business and sure about languages - I’d go with that.

I also would not pick up German because it’s “useful”. If choosing a 3rd language, ideally pick one you love - or are intrigued by and want to try out. Russian would be a better shout, in my opinion (obviously I’m biased), as would Arabic or similar in terms of opening career doors - but Arabic would be a huge commitment and would only really be compatible with doing a second MFL that he already has a strong grounding in.

I'm not sniffing at graduate schemes, those who went into them did very well. It was that most started the course with ideals of doing something directly related to their degree and there were not that many options for that available. Many ended up in accountancy because that's where the jobs were and it was "random" compared to what they originally had in mind. Many took whatever was going and nobody could blame them, but it wasn't what they wanted.

@FortunaMajor
I think when DD did her degree using your languages wasn’t on the radar anyway. For the majority. Times change.

Translation snd interpretation jobs are lonely. Not much interaction with human beings. So I think Dc want something more exciting or well paid from the outset.

If he wants to achieve fluency I would stick with the two languages rather than three. As a PP said, dual language students already have to cram two countries in during the year abroad and a third would mean very little time was spent immersed in the country and culture. DD was too considering doing the 3 languages at Bristol but by the end of her degree ended up rather jealous of her single honours peers who had spent almost a whole year abroad in one location and therefore were now very fluent! I think it is better to be fluent in 1 or almost fluent in 2 languages than it is to be just ‘ok’ in 3.

Nevertheless she loved doing 2 langs (French and Span) and I don’t think would change that for anything - neither would I from my personal experience but DD’s was far more recent. She was not bored at all as a PP says and had a massive range of modules available to her from Spanish history, film, art, lit, politics etc.

Newcastle was one of the Uni's DD applied to last year for modern languages (French & Italian). Newcastle offered AAB (higher than their website) while Bristol only asked for ABB (her friend got BBC as a contextual candidate). She was really impressed with the Bristol MFL offer, an amazing department - cinema, library etc all in the department. Edinburgh asked for A star AA - again higher than the website. Makes it all quite hard to predict.

As a boy with 5 offers he can afford to be quite ambitious plus one or two safe options for as PP said languages are v female dominated.

I'd agree with PP's 2 languages sufficient...

Thank you for all replies so far. DS has had a read of this thread (no school today or tomorrow as his teachers are NEU members) and it clarified his thinking. He is inclined now just to do MFL as he knows he enjoys languages and is good at them. By contrast, he has never studied business and has no idea if he will enjoy it. He was encouraged that PP think that he will still be employable without adding business on (which his 6th form team had encouraged him to do).

Does anyone know if Warwick and Surrey are well-regarded for languages? I saw him looking at their websites earlier....

He wants to do three languages at least in the first year as he enjoys language learning more than reading French or Spanish texts and thinks doing a third language would allow him to cut down on cultural modules. I don't agree with his reasoning but it's his reasoning and his choice - not mine! He did say that most universities allow you to drop one of the languages (if it's all too much) in year two onwards

My (joint honours) degree was a fair time ago - I did Law with French so 1/3 French 2/3 law. Obviously the main focus was law to get a fully exempting law degree so didn't have that many options. I ended up doing French Political History 3 times over the 4 years because I also wanted to dodge literature modules as I read the offered books in advance and thought they were dull and wanky... Language module was compulsory every year.

I'd look at the module structure for all the universities and see if they mention compulsory literature modules or if you can go down the history and linguistics route instead (did have some literature in the translation side of language though).

Lol @randomsabreuse at you doing French political history three times over!

Yep, 1st year with a legal flavour, on my year abroad and then the only palatable option in final year. Worst bit was I had to write the final year essays in English which was a bit of a change after the other 2 times through - especially the viva style exam on my year abroad!

I did 3 languages at Durham in the 90s (one ab initio which became my best language) and absolutely loved it as i love learning about how language works and I didn't have to do loads of literature which I hated. However that's just my preference. I would advise your DS to go with his gut instinct. At the end of the day he will do better studying what he loves.

Has he looked at Liverpool? They used to have a MFL degree where you could do three and drop one later on. And it is a great Uni in a good situation. I wouldn’t want to go to Warwick but that’s just me. Surrey was on my original list so just have been Ok or my mum would have vetoed it 😉

Dd2 did French, Spanish and ab initio German at Newcastle, graduated nearly 3 years ago now (yikes). I loved Newcastle, I miss it! She uses her languages for work, but informally rather than formally iykwim.

@Extrahotchilli
Im afraid your DS needs to understand that it’s the cultural and literature options that really make you stand out and are the cornerstone of the better respected degrees.,Everyone will be speaking his target languages. This isn’t really a vocational degree. It’s a degree with essays and research and putting forward academic arguments. It’s a huge mistake to think doing more of what he likes, and possibly cutting down on the academic part of the degree, makes him more employable. It doesn’t. He should aim for somewhere like Bristol where many DC are switched on to the world of work. Plus the degree is respected by recruiters.

Warwick is better than Surrey. In my view.