Relative merits of different universities generally

[herecomesthsun]

I had a conversation with someone I know (Dr A)recently about different universities. I have been trying in a small way to get more support for some students to apply to Oxbridge (and also other Russell Group universities). This person works for a non Russell Group uni. They said that Oxbridge no longer has a cachet - they were very disparaging about it - and that they would specifically discourage their own DC from applying there and that it was widely accepted that other unis were better. They thought that students got less individual teaching by experts at Oxbridge than at other unis.

I thought this was a bit odd, but might be their own individual opinion. I would think that generally, OB was a good idea to get into, if you can, on a have-a-go-but-don't-pin all-your-hopes sort of basis, and then RG was a fairly good idea to pursue; American unis might be fantastic if you can get the funding; other unis might be superb especially if they have a particular course that excels or a tutor who you know is interesting to you. And different settings of course suit different people.

I have studied and taught (in a very junior way) at an OB uni and also studied and taught at other RG unis. I also did a course for work at at non RG uni. My experience suggested, boringly, that OB>RG>non-RG for quality of teaching, support and so on. However, we are talking of patchy, anecdotal experience over 40 years here (as I am long of tooth) so my undergraduate experience for example is very out of date.

Another person who had heard this conversation later said that their partner, another academic of much experience and seniority, agreed with Dr A. So I wondered what the thoughts are on here. And also, how to get objective data to substantiate either point of view?

My ds impressed by Surrey and depth of information given as well. Totally different course @mrsconradfisher - Politics department.
The RG he was thinking of not going to go to offer day after disappointed at open day. Other 2 - Essex (offer day today and very informative and interesting) and Bath next week.

Bath is a very different university to the other two. Again, politics students are very numerous so make sure he can get all the additional skills needed to get a job afterwards. Some obvious areas politics students consider are reducing intake, eg civil service.

For sports science, Birmingham say they have community/civic engagement. They look at obesity and all sorts of elements of sports science. I’m not sure that elite athletes and sports people have to be used. Surely elite football teams don’t need students but the community does would be how I read it. I would suggest it’s quite an altruistic approach. If you value a placement for a longer period, other courses would appeal more.

Is there evidence Birmingham students don’t get work? There might be the issue that your questions weren’t what was happening at Birmingham. I would say for sports science, I would look at destinations for jobs.

@mrsconradfisher I wonder whether it would make sense for you to start a new thread with sports science in the title to try to attract the attention of posters with specific knowledge in that area who might be able to advise on which universities have the best reputation for that subject.

Not sure the general public would be particularly useful for biomechanics, you need access to elite athletes. That’s sort of the whole point of the course. Community engagement is important Im sure but not at the expense of exposure to the very people you need to be working with.

Thank you, I might do. It’s been eye opening though to see how RG university’s are perceived just because of what they are.

I won’t comment anymore as I’ve managed to completely derail the thread, apologies.

My daughter's undergraduate experience at Oxford suggests that tutorials at other colleges were the norm there too.

@mrsconradfisher Thats simply not true about biomechanics. Anyone can benefit from assessment if they are doing a sporting activity. It’s not about just the elite. It’s ultimately about preventing injury. I’m sure a new thread will help you.

Re 1 to 1 tutorials, yes, that was what I said; but Dr A said that the teaching was all done by very junior staff; that none of the well known professors were involved in teaching; and everybody knows these days that Oxbridge teaching is no longer any good.

I'm at an RG university (but not Oxon/Cantab) and Dr A is talking utter rubbish.

You can't make such a sweeping statement - the quality of teaching at universities across the UK is very much discipline specific.

And frankly, sometimes I think my "very junior colleagues" are much better teachers than I am - they're closer to the undergrad experience, and not world-weary as I sometimes become, at hearing about yet another dead grandmother at essay deadline time ...

My "very junior colleagues" all have PhDs and HE teaching training and books published & seemingly boundless energy. Anyone being taught by them is bloody lucky.

I think personal impressions are a perfectly valid means of including or excluding a particular university – if the student is going to be spending 3 or 4 years there it makes very good sense to go somewhere that gave them a good vibe when they attended an open day, and whose lecturers and students can answer questions the visitor deems important. I would take the view that the lecturer a course chooses to put forward to speak at an open day would be one of the more enthusiastic/knowledgeable/experienced. If they are terrible, it would not send a great message.

@mrsconradfisher Surrey is rated at least on a par with Birmingham for sports science. People in the industry will know this so assuming your DS would like to work within the sports field, there wouldn't be any huge advantage to going to Birmingham. Within sport, no one will give a monkey's whether he went to an RG university or not.

Why do you need access to elite athletes for biomechanics?

principles apply whether you’re elite or not.

Even so, students won’t have “access” to elite athletes anyway, they are very tightly controlled by NGB’s and deal only with their staff.

Birmingham’s reputation is growing post commonwealths. Leeds Beckett for triathlon, loughborough for swimming. Generally though you go to one of those uni’s if you are elite, as balancing uni and elite sport is incredibly hard, so you need the facilities, other athletes, timetabling etc. if you’re not an elite athlete attending for the training aspect then the field widens considerably.

I’m not going to derail the thread anymore but that’s been the “selling point” of every single other Uni that we have looked at…great connections to elite athletes and the ability to do a placement year. I sort of assumed they knew what they were talking about? Hence why we were concerned as Birmingham had apparently no connections at all. For example Loughborough explained how they support the students to go into County Cricket and use what they have learnt in real practice. Birmingham stated that they don’t do this.

I don’t know anything about Biomechanics, I’m just a very thick 45 Year old TA who couldn’t possibly have an opinion at all. All I’ve got to go on is what DS thinks and several other potential students at the open days. They thought it was a fairly crucial point so therefore so did I.
Like I said I’m not commenting anymore, it wasn’t the point of the thread and whatever I say will be wrong anyway.

The aspirational applicants are starting to abandon Oxbridge for the Ivy League because of the increased intake from state schools. The cachet of Oxbridge consists for some in the potential of rubbing shoulders with the future Tory leadership, not the great unwashed.

I have to say that I avoided the student Tories like the plague - but that's just me. By aspirational, do you mean fledgling Boris Johnsons?

@mrsconradfisher please don't call yourself thick! If you are, so am I as a fellow TA. We are not...
I think @thing47 has made a recent good point you should look at.

I'm with you @mrsconradfisher. If your DC didn't get that warm, fuzzy feeling from the Open Day, that's what matters.

Whilst going to a RG university may place you further up the pecking order for mainstream graduate recruiters, that's not the route to a happy and successful life that all graduates take.

You do realise @mathanxiety that aspiration is not just the preserve of the wealthy (those who can afford Ivy League fees) or those at independent schools ?

@thing47
To be fair, when the question of Birmingham was raised, no one knew what subject! If that had been clear, the views might have been different. If it had been history, I would still have said RG Plus!

I agree universities might not put up the best people at open days but if you are faced with “X does this, Y does that, why don’t you?” It’s a bit off putting! I still think a short snapshot shouldn’t be a deciding factor. Far more to look st. I also think universities should stand by what they do if it’s successful.

Do universities have glamorous elite sport placements for all students? At Surrey? I bet they absolutely don’t! What football clubs anyway?

It might be also worth asking questions about the specific courses your son is looking at over at the Facebook group wiwikau - it has parents / students on it who are both at uni and pre-uni, and they might be able to give you more insight on the placements that the various unis offer / don't. Sports science comes up a lot on that forum, perhaps more do than on mumsnet.

I've read that some unis state they have links but in practice don't help students organise placements, who then struggle to secure them.

So if you think it's important I think worth doing a bit more due diligence.

Fair enough @TizerorFizz , I would probably share your opinion where history is concerned.

Sports science these days is quite academic – it used to be seen as something that sporty but not terribly academic DCs might study, but now many courses feature compulsory modules in areas such as anatomy, biochemistry, and sports psychology.

I don't know anything about placements specifically, either at Birmingham or at Surrey. I suspect you're right in saying there would only be a handful of glamorous placements each year, if that. With regard to the point about access to elite athletes, DH's opinion is that you and @mrsconradfisher are probably both half right. Access to data on elite athletes is absolutely crucial, and this is more likely to be available if a university has established close links to professional sports organisations; however you are also correct to say that sports team and organisation aren't going to give undergraduate students direct access to its professional players.