Dropping EPQ after 6 months

[WombatChocolate]

DS is in Yr 12 and does 3 essay subjects. All is going well and his current targets are 3 A stars.

He has been working on EPQ since September and it is something related to the subject he wants to do at Uni. The research has been going well, but lots of students have dropped it and he’s considering dropping it. This is partly because he was told that of a large cohort in his selective school, only 2 got A star last year and everyone else got A, and he’s concerned about having the A on his CV, as well as wondering if it’s really worth it in times of time and effort required and possible impact on time for other subjects.

He has done lots of reading and note making and knows the argument he would pursue. I feel like he could still refer to this reading and the things he’s gained from it in his UCAS statement. He could still talk about the research skills and the topic itself in an interview if he was called. So, does he need to do the actual EPQ itself? I know some Unis give a 1 grade lower offer if you have an A or above. He will be applying for the really top ones that don’t seem to lower their offer because of it, although he might have an insurance place that considers it.

What do people think? Continue and just press on accepting the big effort required, or drop it?

Really interested to hear from anyone who did/didn’t do it or who also dropped it part way through and was able to use/not use the research they had already done.

Many thanks.

My son did one, he did enjoy it as it combined all his subjects. I think in the end it only gave an extra 50 UCAS points, so really wasn’t worth it and it did take up a lot of his time. He dropped from 4 subjects down from 4 to 3 on teachers recommendation, but then sold him the EPQ, when he probably could have kept going keeping the 4th subject.

Posted similar on another thread but I am not convinced at all about the value of EPQ.

I think if it teaches research skills and essay writing skills then it is useful as uni prep. Sounds as tho your DS has done a lot of that already @WombatChocolate . Other than that, yy only some unis drop a grade with it; DD was advised to drop hers and concentrate on her three A levels. Is he feeling they are slipping bc of the EPQ work?

YY deffo agree he can use the research he has done on his PS, all good there.

My son did an EPQ and got an A* in his. He found it a pain at times and time consuming but I think in the end he was pleased he did it. His was relevant to his intended degree course, he made reference to it in his personal statement and completing the EPQ requires a lot of the useful skills relevant for Uni. He also did extremely well in his 4 A levels and narrowly missed out on an Oxbridge place but is extremely happy and doing well at another top Uni. At the end of the day its up to your son. They are all under a lot of stress in year 12 and even more in year 13 (with personal statements, UCAS applications, Uni visits, A level work, test after test, Career talks) and that doesn’t include any sports they play, other interests and endless 18th birthday parties (coming out of nowhere), learning to drive etc etc).

Assume your DS is thinking of early application and applying to Oxbridge? If he is applying to top Uni’s most only look at A level grades and don’t look at EPQ unless tariff points?

DC said afterwards(when at uni) the EPQ gave him the best preparation for his uni course.

DS did his in yr12 and when his grades went off track in yr13 it helped as he did need the extra points (he was predicted A A A & got BBC A* EPQ & Gold in an Olympiad, go figure!!).

Ugh, predictions were 2 A stars & an A. Sadly even when you think you know it all 40 mins a day revision across all 3 subjects doesn’t cut it

In previous threads @poetryandwine has made some very good points about the benefit of EPQs for the right student in the right context eg preparation for uni, opportunity to showcase interest in niche or inter-disciplinary areas.

However, a key factor is that EPQs are time intensive and if that time intensity compromises achieving the best A-level grades possible, then the case for an EPQ is more finely balanced.

A point to remember also is that several A-levels (depending on the exam board) have NEA elements that allow the opportunity to 'research and report' within an A-level, albeit with restrictions in scope compared with an EPQ.

Accepting this next point is probably not relevant to OP's situation, I think that for students taking three 'essay' A-levels, Core Maths can be a good add-on. Take U of Bath Politics and IR, for example, a reduced offer is available to those with a B in Core Maths or an A in an EPQ; I suspect one is easier to achieve than the other, with a lesser risk to the main A-level grades. Core Maths also signals to employers offering placements and grad schemes that candidates with great non-quant skills have evidence of solid quant skills also.

Thank you, @PerpetualOptimist I had seen this thread earlier. I do value the EPQ for all, but especially for our STEM applicants. Otherwise they may do no writing from age 16, and it shows when it comes to constructing a CV or writing a UG thesis. @WombatChocolate ’s DS is already doing three essay subjects. I agree wholeheartedly with you that if an EPQ is competing with A levels, whether to continue it becomes a serious question. I would always recommend prioritising exams. (@WombatChocolate , I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor).

I think the suggestion made by @PerpetualOptimist that pupils concentrating on essay based subjects consider Core Maths is excellent. It can impart confidence for many employability enhancing university courses with a quantitative component, and I would think employers of humanists and ‘soft’ (that is not meant as any sort of aspersion) social scientists would value it as well. It would also be helpful in many areas of Law.

Thanks for your comments - useful stuff!

Re DS, as he is looking at top unis, most of those won’t lower an offer due to having EPQ. As he will be aiming for A Stars, it’s likely any offer will contain at least one A grade and more likely two, so hopefully he will achieve the grades required. I guess he will have a lower insurance offer.

In terms of interest level, he has found the research and topic of his EPQ interesting, but finds the planning forms and process rather annoying. He’s quite far on with the planning and research, but has had to ‘fake’ plans where he is an a more basic stage and honing the topic and ideas for research and timescales. He has done lots of reading and note making of various types and angles and has gained some useful research skills and note making/referencing skills without a doubt. I don’t think it’s impacted his other A Levels so far….he works hard and is in top of things and doing well. No doubt writing the EPQ will take time and there might be points where he’d rather be working on one of his other subjects….or sometimes just not working at all! So in some ways, considering dropping g it could be considered a bit lazy as he’s doing fine and not struggling with either EPQ or other subjects. He’s quite good at assessing what is needed and the real value of different things - and he (and I) am starting to wonder if there is real value in this for him.

He will be doing NEA for both History and English Lit, so there will be further research and extended writing opportunities, although I know these aren’t quite the same.

I feel that all the wider reading he has done for his EPQ and the issues surrounding it can still be referred to on his UCAS PS and in interviews, so it will just be the qualification that’s missing….but if the qualification isn’t going to make much difference, does it matter and is it actually the research and skills and kniwekldge he’s gained that’s important and can be evidenced anyway. Admittedly, he won’t have written the actual EPQ essay itself. However, his school might funnel him into a group for those not doing EPQ where they still write an extended essay, although generally people put much less time and effort into it. He could refer to that as part of UCAS, but of course it’s not the formal qualification.

Hey ho! I know it’s not really a big issue one way or the other. Fortunately DS is doing well and will have some good options ahead of him. I suppose someone with a genuine love of the subject would be loving their EPQ and embracing it for the topic itself, but he is quite utilitarian about all his subjects if I’m honest.

Oh and no Core Maths available where we are. It’s a selective school and almost all the students get 8/9 at GCSE. Maths is by far the most popular A Level subject and those doing sciences are pretty much all doing Maths.

DS is definitely on the humanities side, but actually some kind of practical Maths into the 6th Form might not have been a bad idea. I’m aware that when they apply for jobs, often there is quite a lot of Maths in the early assessment processes and I wonder if those who haven’t done Maths since GCSE then struggle, even if they were good at Maths.

You have already had some excellent advice on here. What A levels is your DS studying? As has already been pointed out some A levels have an NEA content which is pretty much dissertation length, and involves research and evaluating data. IMO this negates the need for an EPQ.

DD did 2 science A level subjects and geography, which involved researching and writing and NEA, which in her case was about 6,000 words. I'm pretty sure this experience helped when she went to university. Even though she did a STEM subject she still had to write a dissertation as part of her degree.

My ds did very well on his epq but my God he put us through the ringer the Easter holiday before due in. [Year 12].
He ruined his holiday and mine [Dad and little brother went on holiday which he missed!].
He wrote and rewrote the whole essay in the 2 weeks. The presentation was done the night before as he had cut it so fine. I felt obligated to stay up til midnight with him. Last minute reference thing. And, all the other bits. All to the wire. It was a passion essay [for him]. Because of his not to be recommended approach I don't think it did impact on A-level work apart from only thing he did over that horrendous Easter holiday!
All but one university lowered offer because of EPQ.

Interesting. So what is the usual time line for the EPQ and, should you wish to 'drop it', when is the latest time you can do that?

And how useful (apart from lowering of offers) will the EPQ be in applications as there is talk of removing personal statements (think from next year)?

@Bitteplease it isn’t just about lowering offers; it is about making them in the first place. You don’t have to make an offer to everyone predicted to meet your entry requirements. How do you choose? The EPQ will remain a useful sorting mechanism. As you infer, in the absence of an essay type of PS it may become more useful for showing supra-curricular interests.

Hi @Bitteplease, the suggested reforms to personal statements are still proposals at this stage and, if enacted, would only take effect from the cycle relating to 2025 entry and the replacement of the current 'long form' PS by shorter structured and standardised sections would still allow students to mention EPQs.

My ds must have had to give his EPQ in shortly after the Easter holidays in year 12. It was for him a huge, intense effort but over a relatively short, painful time!
He is doing 2 essay subjects and maths as A levels.
He says having to reference very useful. Also, learning [very painfully] to not go so over your word count you have to almost start again!

DD experienced this, lots started EPQ and then dropped out. She felt she wanted to do it as was passionate about what she was writing so she continued it out of interest and whilst she doesn’t know the score yet (she is in Y13) has been led to believe she got a top score before it has gone for moderation.

Her first choice is Cambridge who she doesn’t know if it made any difference in the slightest but for one of her insurance choices they reduced the offer for an A or A* EPQ. She did much of it over the summer holidays with the final furlong before half term of Y13 and feels like she got the momentum right for start of Y13, Oxbridge applications, interviews etc so she is glad she did it.

She also feels more confident she is upto the pressure of the intense terms at Oxbridge having juggled a fair bit for the first term of Y13 in finalising the EPQ, personal statement, school work etc. so it was helpful for her. I can see it could be a distraction however for some.

DS got an A star for EPQ and we dont think its been relevant for any uni offers.

I now lead the EPQ in my school. The exam board we do allocates around 40% of the marks to the Learner Record (planning/methodology/source analysis etc), 40% to the outcome, whether that is a dissertation or an artefact, and 20% to the presentation and its Q & A session. The Learner Record is the part my students find the most annoying and time-consuming, but it's an easy way for bright students to get marks.

OP, students can continue to refine their Learner Record throughout, so often mine will refine it towards the end. My students have a maximum of 5 terms, so their deadline is Easter of y13. Another local setting does it in 2 terms, but they have more taught sessions, much smaller groups and it's more driven by the supervisor.

To those people who say there's no point, Oxbridge don't value it etc., my DD was asked about hers in her Cambridge interview. A student 2 years ago did his on a historical subject not connected to his History A level, wrote about it in his PS and was interviewed at Cambridge by someone who specialised in that subject. Ideally students get A star or A grades as they open the door to lower offers. In my school last year, 92% of students got A or A star, 7% a B and one a C.

Not convinced on the value of EPQs either.
It’s not really made a difference for my DC.
The one that did one went to St Andrews (but sixth form required it)
The one the didn’t went to Oxford (optional)
The one applying now hasn’t done one (optional) and has an offer from Cambridge and four other top Unis.

I think if your child doesn’t have any supra-curricular activities that they’ve done on their own, then the EPQ is a way for them to get something to add to their personal statement. It shows that interest in their degree course subject area and the ability to work independently. But if your child already has a lot of these activities on their own motivation, they don’t necessarily need an EPQ.

He says having to reference very useful. Also, learning [very painfully] to not go so over your word count you have to almost start again!

DD had to do all of that for her geography NEA.

Maybe there is value in an EPQ for students taking non essay subjects or subjects that don't include an NEA element. There is no way that DD could have done an EPQ alongside her NEA as well as her other A level subjects.

Could he apply the knowledge he has so far to writing a couple of school journal articles. He can reference them in the PS.

DC did NEA for A level humanity subject as well as a same humanity subject related EPQ. He (as mentioned earlier) found EPQ best preparation for doing the essays he had to do at his uni cours

I have a feeling, and only a feeling, the reason he still got accepted by his(RG) uni despite missing his required grades was his A.star EPQ.
Uni website did not mention they would lower the requirements with A grade EPQ.
Course not in clearing that year.

DD did an EPQ and at times found it annoying (like your DS, the fake plans etc) but was very glad she did it - she found it interesting, she learnt lots about research, references etc and talked about it quite a lot on her personal statement. The actual work involved didn't detract from her studies, but she's very committed and hard-working with little social life or extracurricular stuff (much as I try to encourage her to) so I guess has more time available than many do.

Who knows whether it made a difference, but she's got five good offers from redbrick unis, with at least one reduced for the EPQ. She is doing maths/science subjects so possibly not as useful for someone doing essay subjects.