St Andrews University concerns

[woollymammal]

All advice gratefully received.

DD has an offer (Biochemistry) but a family friend has suggested that she thinks twice because of how the 'SNP extremist position regarding gender ideaology and anti- English sentiment' might affect teaching.

Is this valid? I know there was hoo-ha when an article printed in a student mag deriding Sturgeon was defended by the local NHS head, who called the Uni 'anti-scottish, full of oxbridge rejects' but as far as I could tell, the University dismissed this.

Its such a far way for her to go, and in a small isolated town, I'm concerned that if it is a rampant hotbed of politics it will detract from her experience.

(Exiled Scot myself, and DD is, yes, oxbridge reject 🤷‍♀️)

Ha! DS is an Oxbridge reject (although I prefer to think of him as someone who put Cambridge as one of his five UCAS choices) and very happy there. His friends are a mix of Scottish, RUK and the rest of the world, left of centre but not radically so. I don't get the sense that it's anti-Scottish, given that he has loads of friends from Edinburgh (smart kids who want to avoid tuition fees but also want to get out of their home town).

Yeah, it's a long way and it means we don't see him term time really. This has been no problem as he's been so well and happy, would be an issue if he gets unhappy or ill.

Thank you, @Valleyofthedollymix , that is really helpful. Can I ask a few more questions please? What his subject? Is the accommodation and catering good?

She is torn between St Andrews and Bath. It seems such a fantastic opportunity to be offered St Andrews (the research in her area of interest is excellent) as it is difficult to get into. But loves her subject but is not sure that she wants to follow an academic path so Bath's tie in with its business school is an attraction, as well as its high student satisfaction rate and its proximity to home. First workd problems, I know.

I have a DC in first year at St Andrew's. I haven't heard any talk of either anti English or anti Scottish sentiments. Zero mention of it being a hotbed of politics! DC's friends are a mix of Scottish, English and Europe. There's a large US contingent too although DC hasn't met many through their course or hall.

DC is really enjoying the course and the location. The work is demanding from day one, but maybe that's a good thing? Location doesn't suit everyone - it is very small, but DC likes the fact you always bump into people you know.

My one big concern is about accommodation. DC is embarking on the no doubt stressful search for a house next year and there just isn't enough accommodation in St Andrew's, and what there is, can be very expensive. I don't know if Bath has the same issues.

DC went to an offer holders day last March and instantly felt it was their kind of place, so I would definitely recommend that.

He's doing geography and has a small but picturesque room, and the food is good (though he's an infrequent breakfaster, irritatingly).

The location is stunning and I like the fact that they go to the beach, swim in the sea, go on long walks etc. He says it's so friendly you barely need a mobile - he just walks out and bumps into peopel if he's at a loose end.

Yeah I worry about second year accommodation too but they all seem to get there in the end (fingers crossed not in Dundee). I think this is common to lots of universities though. I think they're building more halls of residence and actually house a high percentage of students (I think it's around 40% of them all).

I expect either would be great!

Russell Group STEM academic here, associated with neither St Andrew’s nor Bath.

Your friend is doing the staff of St A’s a grave disservice. I don’t know anyone who introduces personal beliefs into their teaching; indeed we do a great deal to keep them out. I cannot speak for the students.

Besides, academics these days are from everywhere and as PPs say, at St A’s so is the student body.

Having said all of this, I am on record on this Board as a big fan of Bath for STEM UGs. Whenever I visit I just get the sense that students are happy and thriving. Good campus, great city, Times Uni of the Year 2023.

Sounds like your family friend is just generally anti-SNP.. I would take their comments with a very large pinch of salt.

Concerns about sentiment, whether valid or otherwise, are probably not the aspect to focus on. Accommodation pressures are, however, very real. The student body at St Andrews is equivalent to about 50% of the local resident population, so even minor fluctuations (up or down) in student numbers or available uni/private accommodation has an impact; for some it means living in Dundee and commuting in. Dundee is an often underrated city in my view but is also very different from St Andrews in terms of physical setting etc.

Bath is also a small city and the combined student population of U of Bath and Bath Spa U is equivalent to about 25% of the local resident population; so there are pressures here also to a lesser extent. By way of context, U of Southampton and Solent U student bodies are equivalent to c.10% of the local resident population.

U of Bath has long focused on employability - and placement years are available for all courses, including the BSc Biochemistry (in contrast to most BSc science courses at most unis). However, I appreciate OP's DD may be looking at integrated Masters which tend to have various placement options incorporated.

Thanks all for your very helpful input. In order of posts:
@Doyourealise We visited the open day and, while the event itself was not particularly well run (we as a group had a guided tour of the town then a few minutes standing outside with an admissions tutor - didn't see the teaching facilities, dining rooms or accommodation) we all loved the town. We went to Dundee & Edinburgh too, great trip.

@Valleyofthedollymix The size & location is attractive to her although she worries if she does not find 'her people' that it could be a lonely experience. She is not big on clubs, drinking; is very studious, but is looking to make friends.

@poetryandwine I agree with all of your observations of Bath. Theirs was the most impressive open day we visited too, and she is attracted by the option of a placement and the connection with the business school. That its a big architecture school seems to suggest that there will be a wide range of students.

@Survey99 Perhaps not so much anti-SNP as a bit old school, anti woke. Concerned about limitations on freedom of speech, having to accept perhaps more extreme orthodoxies. I think she is concerned that the SNP's trans politics (I am not familiar with them so have no informed opinion) could impact a subject such as Biology.

@PerpetualOptimist Yes, she has thought about that but couldn't base her decision on it as 5 years in a small fairly isolated place might be difficult if you find yourself not fitting in.

She seems to be sitting back and reflecting, which I agree with: there could be an element of going for the 'prestigious' choice after the disappointment of not getting in to Oxford (although in fact St Andrews topped the Guardian rankings this year) but also, as some of you have pointed out, she also sees the advantages of firming St Andrews as soon as possible given the accommodation situation. But, if she discounts the 'prestige' then Bath has been rising up the rankings lately and the connections with industry seem a real draw. We saw Bath before Oxford and she was absolutely swayed by it, only changing her mind after Oxford.

Argh.

There really is no wrong choice here for your DD, OP. I think students generally perform best where they are happiest. Both choices have sufficient prestige that the most important thing IMO is to aim for the best degree possible, within the context of a good overall life experience. This may include a placement.

And that degree is most likely at the choice that feels best to your DD.

a family friend has suggested that she thinks twice because of how the 'SNP extremist position regarding gender ideaology and anti- English sentiment'

I think this is a potential issue anywhere these days. Probably not an issue if she avoids political groups and student politics.

Both are really good universities. I'm a St Andrews graduate so probably biased. I think the Scottish system has great merits.

Because St Andrews is small and isolated there's a lot of focus on students making their own entertainment, whether that be clubs and societies, sports, theatre, singing or whatever - which works really well.

Yes, St Andrews has some antiquated traditions, whether not stepping on the initials of a martyr in the pavement, academic families, gowns, foam fight on Raisin Monday, May dip etc. - but I don't think it makes it less receptive to alternative views. Indeed in some respects the fact that the Rector is appointed by student vote gives them more say in university governance than in many places.

I went there from rural East Anglia - so a long way from home - the train journey at end of term was a pain - but as a slightly socially awkward academically able student I still found my tribe.

You might not have seen the recent announcement that St Andrews is going to be creating a business school. That said, my experience was , and has continued to be that the Careers Service at St Andrews are pretty good - and the fact the university does a good job of keeping in touch with alumni means there are always ways of finding placements / work experience opportunities.

Reading your post OP it feels as if you're looking for reasons to choose Bath and it's only a perception of St A as more prestigious that's in the way? Really wouldn't choose somewhere on the basis of prestige (or perception of) - she should go with her instinct, which seems to be leaning towards Bath (which is highly prestigious anyway).

BTW there's no advantage in firming St Andrews early as they don't open the accommodation until the offer is unconditional, ie when A level results come in - a scary two weeks before the start of term. They give out a tranche of rooms to the unconditionals (year off, international and Scottish) and then reserve another tranche for the A level ones. So long as it's firmed before the deadline, it makes no difference.

It's great and DS wouldn't want to be anywhere else, including Cambridge. But most people like where they end up. Oh and he does not do a single one of the antiquated traditions and doesn't own a gown.

Reading your posts, I see/hear that you and her both think Bath is the right choice, other than it being lower in league tables. If it is the one in every other way, I wouldn't worry about its position which is still very good.

More good info & viewpoints, thanks all.
I didn't know about the business school @macshoto or how the accommodation was allocated @Valleyofthedollymix so thanks.

As you've said, both are good options. Its just a matter of choosing one. Bath have an offer holders day on 15/2, she will attend that, and then St A on 1/4 (I think) and the pressure is off if she doesn't have to firm now.

My DD was in a similar position to yours - had offers for biochemistry from both St Andrews and Bath.

In the end she chose Bath and is midway through her first year. It was the placement year at Bath which really appealed to her. There is loads of support and guidance and it makes Bath graduates very employable. She also felt she would be happier nearer home. The accommodation issues in St Andrews (v expensive even compared to Bath which is not cheap!) also put her off.

But as a PP said they are both great unis - I am a St Andrews graduate myself and loved it.

@GinandDubonnet That is very helpful. TY!

This is your daughter’s decision.
Listen and support by all means but she should be taking to her 6 th form tutors/transition supervisor who are best placed to advise.

I'm a lecturer in a different field in a different university, and I'm not familiar with either uni.

But, I'm a huge fan of placement. Our students are on placement for their third year - I teach them the semester before they leave and the semester after they come back, and honestly the change in them is incredible. They really do leave as children and come back as adults. If the placement is long enough (at least six months, preferably 12) and the programme is well organised then it's a massive plus.

@SoyMarina It is 100% my DDs decision, and I'm sure she does speak to school, but they do not know her any more than I do, nor will they be there to pick up the pieces if it goes wrong. I kinda think I'd be a strange parent if I didn't take an interest in her decision making process, but we are all different, so hey.

@JenniferBarkley I hear you. Her brother did an industrial placement (data science) which hugely helped, and shaped, his career development.

She's read this thread and, while still undecided, feels that her decision will have taken wider aspects into account, so thanks to all.

A friend’s child went to Bath & had most of the placement year at Harvard, DC didn’t get a full year due to COVID & US visa requirements. I can’t remember if the student did biochemistry or bio med.

My daughter liked the idea of St Andrew’s but didn’t like the idea of losing her anonymity, the thought of always bumping into people filled her with dread (at 17/8). She chose to go elsewhere for Biology.

I know two people at St Andrew’s (3rd and 4th years) and their experience getting accommodation has been awful and the university’s attitude completely unhelpful.
Based on their experiences I’d not encourage my children to go there.

I studied at one of these two and have worked at the other for the past decade plus - imo your daughter can’t go wrong with either. What a lovely choice to be making 😊

Thanks
@LizziesTwin Interesting; DD thinks the opposite, that 'knowing everyone' could help with establishing friendships.

@Haricot Thanks. Would the accommodation issues be the only reason you'd advise against going there, or were there other issues too?

@StJulian2023 Isn't it? Her head says St Andrews: She is interested in Alzheimers research which is a speciality there she tells me, and thinks it would be madness to turn down a place at one of the most difficult universities to get into, and ranked top in the Guardian league tables. And although her predictions are AAA they've offered her ABB which seems to indicate they are quite keen? (I could be way off here) But, when it comes to feels*, its Bath. Maybe its more familiar, we are always more frightened of the unknown.

Bold fail. Only the words 'thinks' and 'feels' should be bolded, apologies.

Predictions are three A stars. I think typing them as asterisks caused the bold fail.