EPQ

[Trixiebell06]

Hi . My child has just started 6th Form A level & finding it challenging she’s changed her EPQ topic twice and feels that it’s not important & a lot of students drop it in year 13 .
Is the EPQ important? To apply for uni for example .
We do have parents evening on Feb .

DD didn't do an EPQ (but she did do an NEA which I think uses similar skills). She got 5 university offers, missed her grades for firm but they let her in anyway (Durham). So in her case it didn't matter one jot.

I don't think there's a 'right' answer and it depends on the individual.

Depends on your daughter’s grade situation but my son got a reduction in his grade for Southampton and just scraped in thanks to the epq.

Thank you @PerpetualOptimist that is really helpful advice.

Does your child know already what he/she wants to study? If so, check the Universities he/she intends to apply to and if they say they do not consider EPQ then he/she may just as well drop it and move on without any bad feelings.
You may hear/read occasionally comments such as 'Universities value EPQ' (likely also from the EPQ coordinator at your child's school) but the simple truth is that if the University says 'EPQ is not considered as part of the offer' then this is written in stone and can be taken at face value (otherwise the University would find itself in serious legal difficulties were it to base an offer on an EPQ).
I myself have been conducting research and teaching STEM in HE since soon 30 years (10 in UK at Russell Group University, previously 20 at TOP10 international institutions). Never came across EPQ before my kids entered sixth form. The concept of EPQ appears to be misguided to me - a product/artefact which is less important than a 'logbook' describing a 'journey'? It is maybe best described as a pupil's version of James Joyce's Ulysses. Tbh, it appears like a reasonable idea motivated by the desire to provide a training opportunity to students in 'independent' research, which then went astray because an artificial modality (logbook) had to be found (and imposed) to mark/assess the way to get there. From what I saw this has nothing to do with how projects actually work or are managed, at Universities or elsewhere.
When my kids cosidered EPQ we checked the internet and there are scores of A star* *EPQ essays with logbooks available for download. Moreover, there are plenty of commercial EPQ mentors who can assist. So - taking cash in your hand and hiring one, and picking a topic that interests you while being close to what you find on the internet that has been awarded an A star, is maybe the way to go.
Which is possibly the reason why many Universities do not buy into it?

DD got into Oxford for one of their most competitive courses and didn't do the EPQ, school insisted on entering her and she got a U.

DD’s university doesn’t take the EPQ into account however it took up about three quarters of her Cambridge interview discussing it and having talked to her supervisors (now Y2) some see it as a very solid expression of interest diffentiatiating from others, even if not ‘official’’

"DD’s university doesn’t take the EPQ into account however it took up about three quarters of her Cambridge interview discussing it and having talked to her supervisors (now Y2) some see it as a very solid expression of interest diffentiatiating from others, even if not ‘official’’

Never heard of that.

@PettsWoodParadise and @DadHusbandTeacher DD1 was asked about her EPQ during her Cambridge interview as it related to her chosen course. They asked why she had made some of the choices and she batted it back at them. Whilst she didn't get an offer from that college, they were sufficiently happy that she ended up pooled and picked out by her eventual college. She's nearing the end of a PhD there now.

@Malbecfan good for DD1. I like Cambridge, did my PhD there. Cambridge Massachusetts however ;).

It's something I would look at doing on a case by case basis, so look at universities and courses applying to and consider if you already have evidence of independent learning and research. DD already had done several qualifications by herself and had a job which involved research so for her it would have added nothing. She had an offer from Oxford without it at her first choice college for Economics and Management. There's an entry test for that though from someone's Freedom of Info request it looks like her interview scores were also very high and think it caused zero issues for her not having it. But for some it could add value.

I think it builds skills for university level study and it helps to develop those skills in sixth form while still at home with the support of parents who can perhaps guide and encourage good research skills. My eldest didn't do one and struggled initially with university tasks such as literature reviews, and yes this support can come through the university but if the child already has some experience of planning an extended essay then they may feel less daunted. Dc2 currently doing one and I can see the value especially if planning to take research/ essay questions at university. It is also a topic of special interest so that really helps with the motivation.

In the same way I can see the benefit of getting a sixth former to cook some of their own meals, organise their clothes washing etc. Good skills to have going into university, perhaps easier to develop while still having the support of parents at home, but ones which most students will pick up in the first year at university anyway.

Both children will/ would have got one lower grade offer from some universities with an A or higher in EPQ, e.g. AAB instead of AAA.

One of the things we highlight when students start year 12 is the skills they acquire as part of the EPQ process, as I stated earlier in the thread. Research has been conducted into the effectiveness of this and we use the statistics in our presentations. An Assistant Head at my school showed them to me, and I've found a link to the studies. It would seem that apart from the topic relevance as regards further study, there are a number of other benefits. Yes, I would say that given that I lead it in my school but if you are interested, take a look: https://rethinkingassessment.com/rethinking-blogs/extended-project-qualifications-what-do-the-statistics-say-about-student-growth/

My DS1 did an EPQ as his school pushed the lower grades from Uni’s angle. He was not sure if he wanted to go to uni yet so did one. His topic was relevant to life today and to what degree he decided he wanted to do in Year 13. Unfortunately many of the uni’s he applied to did not give lower grades with the EPQ. Some did but would only lower your grades if you had them as your firm choice.

it was probably a good exercise to do as it helped with his NEA in another subject.

He decided to take a year out, and since then decided Uni isn’t for him and has an amazing job.

DS2 is in year 12 and isn’t doing one. He couldn’t think of anything to do it on to start with and after my other sons experience didn’t feel it was as required.

i think the benefit of an EPQ is like what others have said, up to courses planned at uni, and what the topic is on.

only your child can decide if it’s worth doing and ultimately only time will tell if it’s been of benefit

The research in the link is interesting; what would be particularly instructive would be an EPQ/non-EPQ comparison at equivalent A level grade outcomes ie what do degree continuation and outcome data look like for, say, AAB with EPQ and AAB without?

That would be more revealing of potential EPQ value added as it helps strip out wider effects which are likely to see more academic students, at better performing schools, being more likely to be encouraged to take EPQs (but who might do well at uni anyway without an EPQ).

It would also be interesting to see research on the numbers of students giving up their EPQ prior to completion and the drivers for that. It sounds like @Malbecfan's school takes care in how EPQs are promoted; at my DCs' school they were definitely 'over sold' and drop out was high.

EPQs appear to take up a lot of time; this can be worth it for the right student but the skills can also be developed via NEAs as part of A levels (eg Eng Lit, History, Geog, CompSci), albeit within narrower subject-specific constraints. This releases time for other areas where useful skills for uni and beyond can be developed eg paid work, volunteering, sport etc. As ever, the position is nuanced.

DD has found Uni at Oxbridge more manageable as she was used to juggling three essay subjects plus an EPQ. Doing an EPQ she feels has given her a head start. research skiils, analytical, time management, etc. She had NEAs for two of her A levels but none to the level required of EPQ. I understand some A levels do have more involved NEAs