Which med schools are best?

[FindingMoMo]

I know there is no such thing as a best med school but which campus based University is best for a bright and sociable student, providing an excellent education in science, public health, practical medicine and creating doctors with excellent communication skills?

FE colleges charge much more for A levels post-19 than the GAMSAT.

@maryso I think I get what you are saying. You are meaning use GAMSAT for students with no A levels ? So not year 13s who are the normal undergraduates in UK medical schools.
For this it works (already for Exeter and Plymouth).
But for your average UK student UCAT does the job (it's still horrible though, and I'd fail terribly !).

I don't understand this. I thought @maryso was saying replace the BMAT with the GAMSAT as it is oven ready and better than UCAT. This would involve rolling out to undergraduate medicine applications for BMAT schools wouldn't it? I don't know anything about GAMSAT but any exam that is heavily weighted to life experience would surely be to the detriment of most 17 year olds applying straight from school mid A levels. There is an argument that Medicine should be post-grad but that would be prohibitively expensive for many.

Sure, everyone will choose what works best for them.

It was about whether the BMAT could be easily replaced, and there's already not just a ready solution but one that is already in use. Given the level of competition in some though not all of the BMAT schools, GAMSAT may well level the field for people who for whatever reason did not make or do well in sixth form but are the ones schools value. I'm aware that in some of these schools there are students who get UCAT scores exceeding 3300 with a week's prep from cold (and then choose a BMAT school) who without the more rigorous objective testing of the BMAT/GAMSAT format have an unfair advantage. So there will always be a need for something more than UCAT in some med schools. Choice is generally good, and less choice is effectively reducing access.

I still don't understand how someone has an unfair advantage just because they are naturally good at UCAT? I can see it's an advantage but how is it an unfair one. The UCAT is not curriculum based and you don't need A levels for it so surely that breaks down any advantage of having one type of education over another or even having been educated in a totally different system. If the skills tested by the UCAT are considered to relevant to being successful in a medicine degree, what is the problem with it?

@maryso all medical schools use more than UCAT - they interview, they set unexpected extra tests (looking at you Cardiff), they ask for R&R forms. So no real need to add anything else into the hoop jumping.
BMAT is just a different way of shortlisting. I imagine most unis will use UCAT or set their own exams (if wealthy enough to administer them). No Uni is much more competitive than another in the UK - it's between 1:10/14 per place, which varies each year.
GAMSAT works for graduates, older people with more life experience. But for 17 year olds it's would not be fair.
And if anyone can get 3,300 on UCAT they deserve any place they get !

@opoponax you hit the nail on the head. UCAT takes away any advantage in education and levels the playing field. We get a school Medify account so students get that free too.

It's not nice, it's hard to know exactly how you'll do, but it is at least fair as everyone in the same position.

Side advice; get your DC to look at any Saturday jobs in a care setting as this helps with applications and realising if they actually want to be in the profession. Pharmacies, care homes etc

@opoponax people who sit the GAMSAT would say that the science and reasoning aspects plus the actual endurance test on the day are what they fear, not that it's heavily based on life experience. @MedSchoolRat has already pointed out that those who have good people skills tend to have them early on anyway, and the rest of us have to work harder to get there, so a say 20+year old with no or poor A levels for whatever reasons gets the chance to access medicine by doing an exam that is as demanding as 3 science A levels and humanities, UCAT style reasoning plus written communication skills in a demanding test environment.
Medicine is not a "post-grad" level qualification, it is called that in those countries which have a different tertiary education structure; the material is undergrad in UK terms, plus we have a 18+ age threshold, so there is no reason to make UK primary medicine courses postgrad.
As for the UCAT, it is very useful (which is why there are equivalent sections in the BMAt and GAMSAT) however limited by design, and has to be used with other selection techniques such as A level grades. The BMAT/GAMSAT test more than the UCAT so there is more objective evidence to inform interview selection.

I'm a consultant. I don't know where half my colleagues went to medical school. It really doesn't matter where you go.

Pick a course that is likely to suit your child, in an area they want to live in which is hopefully relatively easy for them to get to from your home and accept that they may end up in that area for the rest of their lives....

(DOI: I buck the above trend and work 400 miles away from where I qualified. But I do have three friends from my year who work in the same, admittedly big, hospital).

@Hotsweatymomspagetti v good advice. Or get a job in a cafe, or shop or garden centre. Customer facing work helps so much, both with gaining those soft skills, but also it shows medical schools you can manage your time, be patient, deal with strangers and shoe resilience. They like long term volunteering too, even if it's helping with Brownies or the local netball club.

I thoroughly second this.

Best not to get hung up on how clever to get when applying because learning styles vary and life is important so location matters.

@AdelaideRo my only caveat is that you have to choose Unis where your stats will get you an interview. So no point applying to Exeter unless have 3 A star predictions, or applying to Sheffield with a UCAT less than 2,800 or applying to Cardiff without 9 9s (& being Welsh) or Notts without an SJT 1. These days you have to be strategic (unless perfect).

Students do choose Unis - they can only apply to four so they have to choose those. After that there will many good candidates that universities will be keen to have and will be getting four offers to choose from. Of course that won’t be the universal experience, but some candidates will stand out.

In 2020 approx 5% of applicants got four offers. It is tough and they can't get hung up on any one choice.

Watching my friend's son navigate med school applications was an eye opener last year (and both of his parents are doctors). He ended up at Oxford and had another offer, but rejections as well.

I think his number 5 option (biomedical sciences?) was the same offer as the med schools so no real backup option. Plus doing the UCAT, BMAT and interviews on top of his A levels.

To the medics, I'm in awe of you managing to get through the application process; it seems a total nightmare!

Brighton and Sussex unis have a joint medical school. Nice combination of city and campus buildings.

Here are my thoughts. I’ve been a frontline doctor for over 25 years and have also interviewed doctors for med school for more than a decade

Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions.
I have never had to tell anyone where my degree is from other than on my CV for jobs.. If you look me up I think you can see the uni on the GMC register but I would have no clue where any of my colleagues trained unless it came up in conversation. Snobbery around where people trained is very much frowned upon, we are way more interested in where they’ve worked previously and how that can help us. Doctors tend to judge colleagues by how we get on with them and their work output rather than their background from what I’ve seen over the years. Medics typically come from a whole host of backgrounds, not just the stereotypical public school.
I found it interesting that the first response assumed it was a DS. We actually look for gender assumptions at interview. The med school I work with is really hot on stamping out bias where possible.
The selection processes vary hugely between universities and as pp have said, it is a lottery and depends where you are lucky enough to get an interview based on score. If I had one bit of advice I would say be very careful how your ds / dd comes across on interview day. They need to be decisive but not cocky and warm and personable. A big ask!
Also get them to read around probity (the answer to any scenario will be report it to the med school!) and if there is an interview station run by current med students be warned, they are often the harshest critics as they know exactly what it takes to get through med school. A lot of interviewees let their guard down at this point which is very interesting to watch!
Finally, good luck! I still love my career despite dealing with massive pressures every day. Yes I am part time and yes I’m terrified about what the next 10 years holds but just remember that a medical degree is a key to many other careers if the nhs comes crashing down. I would not want to do anything else and my work family is like a second family to me. Having said that I will not be encouraging either of my own dds into medicine unless they really want to but thankfully they’re showing no signs yet!
I hope that helps in some way

I think his number 5 option (biomedical sciences?) was the same offer as the med schools so no real backup option. Plus doing the UCAT, BMAT and interviews on top of his A levels.

Why is biomedical sciences so often a backup offer? As a career it is no way comparable. It seems like a lazy choice. Or is it an expected one? Of course any alternative worth it’s salt wouldn’t want to be the fifth choice like this.

It's not a lazy choice. It's actually quite complex. A number of medicine applicants leave the fifth choice blank as it is their intention to reapply if they do not get a medicine offer. Some put a fifth choice purely to get an offer in the same general timeframe as their non-med friends rather than having to wait for months for a Medicine offer. My DS got his first medicine offer in March and it is a tough wait for them. Some applicants put bio-med as a fifth choice because there is crossover into med from bio-med in some universities. The reality is that there are very very few crossover places and their odds would be much better to reapply for medicine if they get no offers. Pharmacy is another fifth choice medics go for or sometimes biology. Some do get disheartened with how tough the process is and end up taking their fifth choice.

My DD is applying this year and she has bio-med as her fifth choice. She was going to leave it blank as she will reapply for medicine if she gets no offers but there was a practical consideration that in order to be eligible for UCAS Extra not to leave it blank as you need to have used all five choices. If you left it blank you would need to apply for another course down the line, get an offer (and reject), and so potentially precious time could be lost.

Unis don't tend to care if bio-med is fifth choice.I'm not even sure they would know apart from early entry timing but that could equally apply to someone applying to Oxbridge for a non-med course. Both of my DC got offers very quickly for very good bio-med courses as fifth choices and they are lower offers than for medicine.

Because when they're 18 they choose the 5th option with an eye to either being transferred to medicine in the second year, or applying for Grad entry medicine. Biomed degrees offer the best chances of these very very slim events happening. They're not applying because they've decided to be Biomedical scientists if they can't get to be doctors!

I know someone who was a graduate entry (4 year graduate course). He said most of his peers were nurses, dentists, etc and nearly all had worked for several years prior to applying (he had done a degree in biology and had worked in drug trials). He didn’t have any recent biomedical science graduates on his course. I am sceptical that having a degree in biomedical sciences would give a better chance, though I can understand that they might get more applications from those graduates if it is regularly used as a back up.

Which unis allow transfer from biomedical science to medicine in second year? I would imagine the courses are too different for that.

A degree in biomed absolutely does give you the opportunity to transfer to medicine post-graduate (I don't know about transferring during the course), in fact it's a widely accepted secondary route into medicine and indeed quite a large proportion of biomed students are doing it for precisely that reason having failed to get the grades for medical school initially.

DD2 (no interest in medicine) did biomed and reckons somewhere between one-third and one-half of her cohort were hoping to get into medicine. No idea how many achieved it, though 2 of her close friends did and are studying medicine now.

The main issue with going that route is, of course, funding. You can't get a student loan for a second under-graduate degree (unlike for a Masters) so you need either access to the bank of mum and dad, or to have worked – and saved – during your first degree/holidays.

Sorry @thing47 if I wasn't clear. I meant to transfer from bio-med to medicine during the undergraduate course. Funding isn't the only issue with graduate entry medicine. It is so much more competitive to get a place than undergraduate so much better chances to reapply for undergraduate entry.

I think Newcastle have a few transfer places each year for outstanding bio-med students who want to transfer to medicine.